Course?

quote:Originally posted by Dilphinus

I think going to a school will be getting to know people, learning to work in a team and how to get along with others. These are very important skills which you can't learn alone from books. Besides, you can learn how to use a software from books...but can they tell you the perspective and lighting etc? The books can't criticize or give comments. That's why we need to go to school to interact and have professionals guide us. Most of the time, we are expected to be independant and do our research and learn on our own, but we still need teachers and friends in order for us to improve ourselves and our skills.

That's why you get involved with a community such as the one on polycount.com where they have many of the industry leading pro's hanging out there to give you advice and critiques.....and it's free [:p]

http://www.jasondalton.com

Blitz: I did dip 2 and worked on hail for that time.

quote:Pfffffft, formal education, who needs it? All you end up with is a big giant HECS debt. Just go buy a few books, read em, practice practice practice and practice some more, when you think your at a level where your portfolio stands out from the crowd go job hunting.

Hee hee, if you have read much about what you need to get a job in the industry. You will know that you need industry experience to get a job. This is what the AIE give you, for only about $10 000. I have to say that I never used a 3D art package before I went to the AIE. The first year at the AIE help anyone with that. But the 2nd year is were the AIE comes into it's own, I know now about 4000 times as much about the industry then I did 12 months ago, the kind of stuff you can find in books.

Also having a game under your belt helps a fair bit too.

Industry experience means that you have worked in the industry already and know how things work in a commercial games company, how can you get that while going to the AIE? I don't understand.

Besides, all I know is, that when we review reels at work, we tend to look at the quality of the work presented in the portfolio, if it's good we pass it onto the art director if not then you get tossed onto the pile. I haven't ever seen anyone in the art department really give a toss about what courses the applicant has done, imho it's raw talent that counts.

You don't need industry experience to get a job in the industry, or else how would anyone new ever get in? I certainly didn't have any experience prior to my current job, neither did the new guy who just started working with us these last couple of weeks.

That's just my thoughts on the matter anyway....

http://www.jasondalton.com

Jason is right, that Is the way we work at Krome, other developers are a little more formal. Your work is the MOST important thing to anyone. Many of the "inexperienced" people I've hired at Krome can run rings around some of the "old pros".

The moral "Be damn good at what you do and you'll get a look in"

Perhaps it is just programming positions rather than artist positions where companies are looking for this sort of experience in applicants. Possibly it is because artists work is more encapsulated (wrong word probably) in that you don't have to worry so much about how your art will interact with other art, so perhaps teamwork is not such a big deal? Whereas with programming you have to be much more aware of what other code is happening etc. and things are much more complex when you add everything together.
Just some guesses as to why it's this way, i wouldn't know for a fact as i've never been a HR director :P
Even Krome's website states..
"Must have held a programming position throughout the development of at least one published game title
2+ years experience in game development
B.S. Degree in Computer Science preferred
Thorough understanding of the game production process"
Among other things, for their programming positions.
The artist position says some similar things, but is not as demanding. Most of the experience or qualification things are "preferred" rather than mandatory.
BTW, on a kind of tangent to the topic here, but i personally don't believe university degrees mean crap. The number of people who passed comp sci courses in the years i was there who really really shouldn't have was amazing...(I was one of them hehe)
Anyway, back to the topic.
CYer, Blitz

Umm - I'm not an artist, but I know that they way artwork fits together is very important, so I wouldn't presume that artisty is at all "encapsulated" in the programming sense.

And plus, with modern "software engineering" practises code IS supposed to be encapsulated.

Anyway, I've always thought that when game companies are hiring programmers that are untried, they *will* consider you if you send in a demo of code that you've done, and even better if that demo is a game itself (even if it's small) because that fulfils criteria that they know to look for such as experience developing a(ny) game, preferably in a team. Any development company that *has* to have experienced only employees is kidding itself, I doubt Krome will only hire experienced employees regardless of what their criteria say. I don't know of many companies that don't consider untested programmers.

Like what the artist said, be damn good at what you do, that way they employer will think twice about disregarding an inexperienced programmer. A tertiary education really is just one of those qualifications that isn't necessary, but more often than not it shows that you are pretty serious about programming/computer science, and also able to apply yourself to learning tasks.

quote: but i personally don't believe university degrees mean crap

Is that a bad use of a double negative? If it is - then I think that you are partially right, Uni degrees are soft-cock stuff because they are just about churning out dumbass people into a very resource hungry industry...

Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au

Yeah...bad language there. Sorry about the confusion.
I have a couple of issues with uni educations...they are (in about order of annoyance):
Group projects. Everyone gets the same mark regardless of the work they've put in. I was on a couple group projects where i had to do basically the whole thing myself, and all except one of the group projects i was in, there was at least one person who did little or nothing.
They pass people far too easily. In most of my subjects it WAS difficult to get a good mark (HD 80+) without doing well/hard work, but it was far far too easy to pass the subject (say 50-55). I believe this has something to do with the cost structure of the uni...it is not financially viable to fail students. There were only 2 subjects i did where i was rightly failed (although one i considered a little unfair :) ) Several subjects i believe i should have failed but got marks around 50-55. Many people where in third year who should have never passed basic comp sci in first year.
Too much scope. Getting a broad overview is a good thing, but unfortunately this is about the only thing they do there. There is very little opportunity to do in-depth study of a particular topic at uni (as part of your course anyway) as the number of subject choices simply doesn't allow it.
Some lecturers were just awful. 'Nuff said.
Anyway, that was my experience with uni. I had experiences with people in second year who didn't know how to use pointers in C (C was the main language we used in semester 1&2 of first year).
Anyway, enough rambling about my dark past :)
CYer, Blitz

w3rd up Steve!!!! [8D]

http://www.jasondalton.com

Well there you go.

I will still have to say that, I'm very happy with what I lreaned at the AIE. And that there is no way I would know the poeple and be in the postion I'm in if it wasn't for the AIE.

BTW, nice site lay out jason. Love the 1000 poly chick for Urban Terror, (Beside the arms.)

Hey Doord I saw Hail at the AGDC very impressive stuff for 9 months work. Did it win the best unsigned game? Im planning on going to the AIE after I get some study in programming, I didn't think I would be creative enough for much modelling but do love level design. Im interested how ur project goes it would be great if u could keep the forum posted on it and your travel into the game industry. Any publishers interested in it funding the project futher? And Blitz I was wondering how u went about getting a funded position at AIE.

Thanks

Wicked Witch's game "Melody Mars" won best unsigned game.

How i got a funded position? I applied, did the test, sent up some examples of my work, and they gave me a funded position :P (And i was worried i might not even get into first year haha. I underestimate myself too much i guess).
You don't neccessarily have to be creative for modelling. If you're following someone elses concept artwork, there isn't much creativeness there. (Not saying it isn't difficult or anything, but the creativeness has been done by the concept artist.)
CYer, Blitz

I paid for my time at the AIE. Being an artist and the AIE having a huge number of people which are able to work on the art side of games. You would have to be very good to get a paid position.

Programming on the other hand is very different, I think the AIE had three full paid positions and a two half paid ones last year, and more then likely a lot more this year because of having two class this year.

Hail didn't win the unsigned game because there was a fuck up in the voting and no one knew how to stop people voting as many times as they wished to, this ear the vote from will be a pert of the package you get with the your AGDC pass.

We had a few people that had the money to paid for the rest of hail that ask a few question about cost but I having heard if that has gone an further.

I'm just about to start on a MOD called Seven Days of Change, using the Unreal Warfare Engine. I'm working on it with most of the team from the Hail team (just a few people missing because they aren't the best to work with, or don't want to work.) I also design the game and story for it and taking the role as art director.

I should be around a fair bit here, good place to find out about paid work. Also what is the go with the WIP page no one using it.

quote:Originally posted by Doord

Programming on the other hand is very different, I think the AIE had three full paid positions and a two half paid ones last year, and more then likely a lot more this year because of having two class this year.

Correction: four full paid (or almost full paid) and one half paid.

Also, don't underestimate the importance of team-work...

To right Ren about the team work but I think now i think about it that the two things i siad go hand in hand. And there is nothing as bad as having to wait on poeple which don't work.

quote:Originally posted by Dilphinus

Thanks.

What course should I do if I have learnt 3D Studio Max and Softimage. I've not used 3D Studio Max for about 2 years. Should I do it again?

I've got basic animation skills.

Or shall I try for the 2nd year Diploma course?

How do AIE go about accepting students? What do they look for in the portfolio and what's the rate of students getting in?

Have you applied for the course at AIE?I'm thinking of studying at AIE too.Likewise,i'm from Singapore.

I think study has its place, if nothing else you get to meet like minded people.
Polycount, Sumea, Cgtalk etc are all good places to learn and make contacts but theres nothing like being able to see the person.
Hell I didn't know off any of those places existing until my mate Ryan showed me at Qantm lol. [:P]

Steve:

quote:The moral "Be damn good at what you do and you'll get a look in"

I guess I need to WOW you with my brilliance more hey Steve. [:)]

hi,
so i guess AIE is the most recommended place for study then.
why do u say QANTM is bad? Do you know of CGC and SGC or any other plce in sydney? Also any places which offers you a master's program, like UTS or something?
Im looking for a course in Animation and special effects for the movies, any recomendations?

fonzz......

quote:Originally posted by fonzz

hi,
so i guess AIE is the most recommended place for study then.
why do u say QANTM is bad? Do you know of CGC and SGC or any other plce in sydney? Also any places which offers you a master's program, like UTS or something?
Im looking for a course in Animation and special effects for the movies, any recomendations?

fonzz......

How about Bachelor of Animation at Griffith University, Brisbane.