Here is an interesting little article:
"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002
Leviron just pointed out that some people may actually beleive i wear womens underwear or buy them as some kinky fetish thing lol, I was actually joking, you know haha funny funny.
Me's a boxers man my self.
I need to go strip down an engine now, my manhood has been comprimised. [:P]
I dont actually think men have lengerie department, do they?
errr... i'm not going near that one, (or malus, or pantmonger for that matter)
I have no idea what female gamers want.
I'm just guessing but maybe they want games? If the question is about why there are more male than female gamers... i'm not entereing into that, its been done to death already, it's a semi n-complete problem that some people claim they know the answer to but we all know that they're bullshitting.
I don't think adding "hot surfy lead male characters" is going to do much to make a game more popular with girls. Based on the fact that the "scantly clad overendowed lead female characters" don't do anything for me... maybe its just preference though (small cute with too much wintergear seems to appeal to me).
meh, i know i said to much... but i'll live with it.
*wolf whistles* Interesting post. I'm a girl and here's my point of view: I like games.. any genre, any platform. I dislike poorly made game, and generally love those that are well done.
Great games, in my opinion, are those that have a great balance of gameplay and game story.. I prefer gameplay to be a compliment to game story, rather than a gamestory created to patch holes in gameplay.
Something was said at the start of this post about female's prefering team over solo and it brought back memories of a combat game I once played with my boyf at the time. Playing it by myself, I wasn't that interested. They were all butch guy characters, and the game story itself wasn't that appealing. But add someone to play with and I was all for it.. Of course, I did spend hours trying to find a mod for a female skin.. and eventually found one (boy, was it really poor quality).
Vice City was sweet.. except that I couldn't play as a chick and again, it's a snap back to reality every time I see this big bloke running around the screen. If it's a girl, then it's easier to become absorbed into the game, and you don't have this constant reality reminder that you're not in it, you're just pressing buttons on a keyboard.
I love games that allow character customisation.. I love games that let me design the game world.. Sims, UO, etc.
I'm not sure if it's been linked, but I love the article "Game Design for Girls" by Ernest Adams (honestly, anything by him is great). Here's the link, it's at gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/designers_notebook/19980213.htm
Anyway, I've got work to do so I'll leave it there.
quote:Something was said at the start of this post about female's prefering team over solo
I would put forward the thought that perhaps they don't enjoy team over solo, but rather they prefer the social interaction. I therefore suggest that if two games were equally enjoyable, someone who enjoys the social interaction could have as much fun playing a solo game with someone sitting next to them, as playing an actual multiplayer game. Of course i'm not sure if this was relating mulitplayer Vs singleplayer, or multiplayer individual Vs smultiplayer team. If it's the latter, i would put forward that in general for males and females, team-based play is preferred to "deathmatch" individual (it's fairly simple to verify this by looking at the number of team-based games being played online compared to individual style games).
quote:If it's a girl, then it's easier to become absorbed into the game, and you don't have this constant reality reminder that you're not in it, you're just pressing buttons on a keyboard.
I'm interested...do you prefer first-person games for this reason?
What games have you played with a female lead character that hooked you (with it's immersion).
I agree, I like social interaction. When playing Devil May Cry, I was always nagging my boyf to come play with me. When it comes to RPG's, or management games (sims, age of mythology, etc) then I love nothing more than some lone time to play and get involved in the game.
Maybe this is because RPG's require your imagination to be in the game, if you want to escape into the fantasy word.. breaking attention is another reminder that you're only playing a game, and hense the immersion level drops. On the other hand, for me atleast, an FPS is usually just about having fun, running around and blasting away at things.. something more fun to do with friends.
quote:I'm interested...do you prefer first-person games for this reason?
Mmm... I wouldn't say prefer, because I don't really have a preference for type. First-person games that only feature males are annoying. I know some boys that are happy to put on a dress and run around as a girl... but I'd rather keep my dress than don a beard and testosterone.. Why?
Well, in RPG's and the like, I get absorbed into them (like I've previously mentioned) and playing a female is more realistic for me. Whilst in FPS and similar, I prefer to see a chick kick ass, because I know we can (Did I mention I'm a martial arts addict?).. and again, it's more realistic for me to play.
quote:What games have you played with a female lead character that hooked you (with it's immersion).
Mmm... lol! Maybe Tomb Raider? Though I didn't really get hooked.. When it first came out, I was at the stage where having to shoot bad guys scared me.. I hated the fact that I could walk around a corner and be suddenly attacked.. (Yes, this is embarassing to admit.)
However, I find it interesting now when looking back, that whenever my brother would sit down and play with me, and I'd be showing off, doing all sorts of neat tricks.. etc, etc.
Anyway, in answer to your question:
I really don't know many games out there that star females.
Oh wait, the Longest Journey. That was pretty alright. It had an interesting story.
Mmm.. I was just thinking about the Monkey Island series. I swear, it was the coolest game.. and not once did I care that I wasn't playing a girl. I think the reason for that is because it's all cartoony and it's more like watching an interactive cartoon than trying to absorb you into an alternate reality. But I haven't seen many games like that around.
I used to love multiplayer text-based games (MUD's and the like) because I could have a lot of control over the type of character I played (customisation), it was generally a social game, and there was a lot of story-telling aspect in the rp. Though.. I despised MUD's that were poorly done, or simply hack and slash muds. If you're going to loose the story-telling aspect, then what's the point? Better to hack and slash with graphics, than with numbers, in my opinion.
Another thing, I personally don't need games to be made that star all-cast females.. (hehe, especially if the females are designed by boys :P) but a choice works. For example:
The Matrix game was pretty awesome in that you could choose between a male or female character, and they each had their own special skills. Unfortunately, the game levels were bland and boring, and the game could have well done with a few more months development.. but the thought is still there, and should in my opinion, be more explored in the game market.
Infact, at the moment I'm writing the documentation to develop a game that employs such a feature.
Deus Ex 2 allows you to play a female or male character, i'm not aware that this impacts that game at all other than your gender (for example NPC's don't react differently etc.).
Jet Set Radio Future allowed you to select from a number of different male or female characters that had *some* unique personality traits (not much though). They also had some different skill factors, but i rarely found this impacted the choice at all, you could generally do a level just as well with any character. Once again i'm not aware that your character choice had any other effects (such asn NPC's reactions).
They might interest you in your design anyway.
So, I gather from your comments that having a female character option helps the immersion from a female POV, and therefore increases the level of enjoyment, but the inclusion of a female character would not actually have any influence on wether or not you liked the game, the actual gameplay and story is much more important. Makes sense :)
It's interesting that you prefer social interaction for some games, and prefer to play alone (for the added suspense of disbelief) for other genres. I've always purely enjoyed the gameplay, and although i can get interested or emotionally attached (and immersed) in a game/story, i've always found that playing with someone else there to increase my enjoyment level. I wonder if this is due to the way my brain works (perhaps more logical than imaginative?). Possibly too much time spent not playing RPG's has ruined my imagination :P
As far as first person games go, knowing what your avatar is affects your sense of the game (eg. knowing he is male) even if you never actually see him, and could quite easily (if you ignore your brains knowledge) imagine your avatar as female...also interesting. A very simple mechanism of being able to choose your avatars sex, even though no extra assets/art/ and very little coding is required to accomodate the change, increases the enjoyment of the game!
I know some male gamers *darts eyes* sometimes enjoy playing as a female character in 3rd person games so they can look at girls on the screen...
Do you ever find yourself doing this with male avatars, even when there is a female choice available?
I know there has often been a discussion that girls should be interested in seeing huge musclebound "sexy" guys on the screen (particularly in the wake of tomb raider/lara croft's popularity). Your thoughts?
PS. I think in this industry it could be a while before more than a small percentage of female character concept art is actually done by females :P
hah, I'm just one girl out of.. however many play games.
I'll check out Deus Ex 2 and Jet Set Radio Future sometime, and then give you my thoughts.
I don't play games to look at guys on the screen.. maybe some girls do, but I prefer the real thing.
However, I confess I did get caught up in the Tekken series, and some of those guys were just damn sexy.. shame they aren't real flesh and blood.. *drools* Just kiddin'.. but my point is that yes, I have chosen male characters over female before, but not often. In the Tekken series I'd play females about 80% and male the remaining 20%, with the exception of playing a male character simply to 'pass' with him, get to see the video clip, and possibly an extra character as a reward.
I also would prefer to play a girl that gets the guy, rather than play a guy that gets the girl.
And maybe we don't need femme artists, but atleast more femme designers to add that womanly touch, like me! :P
Interesting to read up on another female gamers viewpoint! I think I've only recently decided that it is way too much effort to think about accomodating for female gamers and I've just given up, if chicks ever play a game I work on, cool, if not, not my problem :) Although I can't forsee any future game I work on being gender biased. I like to think a game with good gameplay, polish and solid construction will transcend any gender barriers we may dream up.
would you look at that, all these long and intellegent posts and ive completely missed out on the attacking peoples sexuality at the top of the page.
right spose this is spam unless i make an input then :P The whole men are from mars and women are from venus (or whatever) motion is bogus to me, every person is different from the next. There gender means little when you consider that. Basicly what im saying is female gamers will have the same diversity in disered gaming as guys IMO, because they have the same diversity in opinion as guys do.
That is true to an extent MoonUnit. You can not make a game that every female will like just as you can not make a game every male will like.
But - there are reasons we have sterotypes. While a sterotype does not make up a WHOLE section of people it makes up a large enough % to be noticed.
Point in case would be FPS. Not ever male likes them - but there are enough that play them so publishers continue to make and market them toward the people who play them.
Women ARE different from men. They have a slightly different genetic makeup (?), different chromosomes, and different hormones etc. running around so their brains can react differently to the same stimulus as opposed to a male brain, for example, males generally react to violent stimulus much more due to all that testosterone etc. Also the effects of environment cannot be ignored eg. playing dressups as opposed to playing with cars and trucks or army men, and marketting companies etc. constantly thrusting "ideal" women in front of everyone. So, wether you like it or not, under the surface men and women are different. I'm not saying they can't like the same games or anything, but i highly doubt the distribution of female gamers who like certain games is similar to the distribution of males who like certain games (genres).
I think there could definitely be some space in psychology/chemistry/biology related reasearch into this subject. I'm sure some publishers would be willing to pay a mint for accurate information :)
I have been staying out of his topic because I have no idea what female gamers want. I?m not sure if this has been said already, but to me it seems that we should concentrate less on making games for females or for men and more on making great games. Women can choose the games they want to play and all that stuff designed for men such as big breasted women and the like are just poor game design in my opinion. Some of the best games of all time weren?t designed for neither women nor men just designed to be great.
THats a fair comment - but games are becoming more and more a visual / alternate reality, that people can see, and not long off, feel.
And like advertisements on the telly, billboards etc - it comes down to, who has the best looking stuff, look at the hype hl2 / unreal2k4 has created for example.
If someone made a game that had 256 bit colour and looked like an old leisure suit larry game, but played brilliantly, i think in this day and age, its going against advancement, and it wouldnt do as well, sure it might sell and make a bit - but more than likely you wont get ANY of the buyers who see a well textured model on a box in EB and go WOW i gotta have this game.
But back to the point - i think games to an extent have got to the point where visually- they cant get all that much more dazzling, i remember playing Warcraft 3 just so i could get to see the next cutscene - but graphics are getting soo good in game, that soon we are playing realtime with graphics like todays cutscenes, and that element of reaching the next cutscene, will be removed. heres hoping it is replaced with some other kind of player reward.
In saying that - your right jigen, its time where engrossing / fun gameplay needs to be worked on and made the focus - IMO graphics are so far ahead of good gameplay these days its about time some companies took that into consideration and found out just what GAMERS , ie not males or females want.
/my 2 cents.
Gamers shmamers. Theres a much bigger market in the people who aren't gamers.
quote:but to me it seems that we should concentrate less on making games for females or for men and more on making great games. Women can choose the games they want to play
It's all well and good to make great games, but it is very interesting (from a designer/business perspective) to know what females would like in their games, since the number of females who play games (going by the most recent survey i can remember) is far less than the number of males. So, if you could almost *double* the number of people willing to play/buy your game, simply by doing something such as adding a female lead character as well as the male lead, wouldn't you do it?
One thing I never see mentioned in these "what do women want to see in a game" is discussion about why it is important to get more people playing games. I mean, I enjoy playing games, and I'd say a lot of games enrich my life, but I can see that wouldn't be true for a large section of the community (males and females alike).
So is it all about greater market share? Or perhaps, is there an element people wanting to find some common interest that they can discuss with people of the opposite gender?
I'm curious as to what's driving people to want to broaden the game-playing base. Greater market share doesn't really explain this to me - I would have thought that if one is being a Capitalist Bastard (TM ;) then (A) there are more lucrative industries - porn sites on the net for instance :-( to be in and (B) marketing to the existing game-addicts is the way one makes more money.
Its true that graphics have gotten good. But on my list of what makes an important game its like number five. Graphics are good at selling but its the reason why there are so many mad looking crap games out there. If people focused more on other aspect of a game then we wouldn't have so many crap games.
So, if you could almost *double* the number of people willing to play/buy your game, simply by doing something such as adding a female lead character as well as the male lead, wouldn't you do it?
I would put a lead female character if the story was improved by having one. I would put both if it made the game better. I really don't care about selling the game. Thats not my job I leave that up to marketing. There are games where a female lead character improves the story then others where a male lead does the same. If a game is really good then PEOPLE will play it. If it's not a good game then no one will play its simple.
quote:If a game is really good then PEOPLE will play it. If it's not a good game then no one will play its simple.
I don't agree with that for a number of reasons, which i won't go into here in the interests of not going to far astray from the topic (but i could ellaborate if you are interested)
quote:I'm curious as to what's driving people to want to broaden the game-playing base. Greater market share doesn't really explain this to me
It explains it to me! Think of the millions...and millions of The Rocks fans who don't play games currently. Think of the money generated if each of them bought a single game a year...billions of dollars, sounds good to me.
From my own (wannabe designer) point of view, i want to get my game out to the most people so it can be enjoyed by the greatest number of people, and perhaps brighten the lives of the greatest number of people. For me it would be a personaly acheivment to have hundreds of thousands of people enjoying something i (co-)created.
I think people (designers) who are in the mind of "creating games that we like" or just "creating a good game" are missing the point that they are creating the game for *other people*. Why they (designers) would not be interested in what their audience or potential audience is looking for baffles me. This doesn't mean you have to design purely around your audiences desires, a wise phrase "trying to please everyone pleases no-one" comes to mind. However, i'm of the opinion that one of the reasons there are so many crap games these days is NOT because of market pressure etc. saying how a game should be, but because designers are so busy trying to make a game that they like, or just "a good game", that they make games that no-one else except them likes. I'm not saying marketing is blameless (obviously a lot of the "clone" type games are due to marketing), but i don't think marketing, publishers etc. who are actually in touch with the audience (commonly developers are NOT in touch, they are too busy developing, or in their own little world) are to blame for a lot of the crap that is churned out.
ehhhh. ramble :P
ahh thanks for that blitz - that does make alot of sense. and yeah i wouldnt mind listening to an ellaboration [:)] always keen to hear others oppinions.
My point is that ill never put the money first - sure getting my games out to millions is perfect - but for some reason theres a certain suxfulness about having to churn out a crap game just cos i know its going to sell, and thus keep the company alive. - it just feels wrong.
There are different groups out there. I understand that. Games won't suit all types. But why does it have to be female gamer or male gamer why can't it just be gamer. But then again I have no idea what other people want. Its one of my weaknesses. Something that I need to work on.
And as to motivation I just want people to enjoy themselves thats it no matter who no matter what the number. From rockers who love dating sims to little girls who enjoy capturing the flag.
quote:Originally posted by Blitzquote:If a game is really good then PEOPLE will play it. If it's not a good game then no one will play its simple.
I don't agree with that for a number of reasons, which i won't go into here in the interests of not going to far astray from the topic (but i could ellaborate if you are interested)
I can think of a few good games that were not popular - Grim Fandango, Siberia, The Longest Journey (thats the name right?).
quote:Originally posted by Jigen
But why does it have to be female gamer or male gamer why can't it just be gamer.
Indeed. I know a number of women who play games, and really, of the people I know, there's no correlation I can spot between the games that the women play and games that the blokes play. And like most programmers, I'm good at identifying patterns :)
I know more blokes that play the sims than I do know women who play it :)
quote:[i]I don't agree with that for a number of reasons, which i won't go into here in the interests of not going to far astray from the topic (but i could ellaborate if you are interested)
Please do, I think it is relevant to the discussion :)
quote:Think of the millions...and millions of The Rocks fans who don't play games currently. Think of the money generated if each of them bought a single game a year...billions of dollars, sounds good to me.
Umm, I have a confession to make... I don't know what The Rocks is [:I] (Spot the programmer without a TV :)
(Hopefully this admission doesn't nail in my coffin regarding knowing what people are actually after [:o)])
quote:However, i'm of the opinion that one of the reasons there are so many crap games these days is NOT because of market pressure etc. saying how a game should be, but because designers are so busy trying to make a game that they like, or just "a good game", that they make games that no-one else except them likes.
Ah, you mean like Will Wright with SimCity, or Richard Garriot with Ultima? ;->
Jokes aside, yeah, I think this is something developers need to work on, but I wouldn't like it to stifle creativity if people go "hmm, I know I'd like this, but since noone else might, I shan't make it".
Sorry CW, The Rock is a very popular wrestler in WWE (WWF), and he's also starred in a few movies (Scorpion King, Wlecome to the jungle).
Anyway, one of his wrestling catchphrases has him saying "...for the millions ...AND MILLIONS of The Rocks fans..." etc. So there you go :)
I'll elaborate on the other thing later when i'm less about to collapse :)
I like womens lengerie more than mens [:P]