Howdy, folks. =)
This is my first post 'round these parts, so I'm admittedly a bit unsure as to how my making this suggestion will go over. Thought it might be worth bringing up, however, so here goes. =)
I've had a bit of a read through of these MOD threads, and it's great to see everyon's so keen and raring to go. =) However, my suggestion would be that perhaps you give some thought to the idea of thinking up a game concept, and then simply creating a "cinematic trailer" for that game, as opposed to a flat-out MOD.
I've got a few reasons for suggesting this:
1) The Sumea community's strength seems to be fairly heavily weighted towards the art side of things - lots of artists, lots of art talent. It might be an idea to simply focus on making THAT aspect look as good as it can possibly be (which, as we all know, tends not to happen during actual gameplay - who can tell the UT2k3 models have facial expressions during gameplay, after all?).
2) I'm going to be fairly blunt here, and hope that it's not taken as discouragement simply for the sake of being a pain in the arse. Here goes - most MODs are terrible. There are so many of them, and the ones that are good in the gameplay department tend to be terrible in the graphics department (and vice versa, of course). What's worse, though, is the simple fact that most industry people looking to hire new talent won't actually PLAY a given MOD that comes with a CV for more than a couple of minutes, so complex gameplay tends to go to waste. And what's even worse than THIS is that even the most dedicated teams who try to pitch a cool game idea that comes in MOD form are still "just a MOD team" in the eyes of developers... and believe me, that's NOT where you want to be placed. MOD teams are, by their very definition, "rookies", and even if you're pitching a very professional-looking portfolio, painting yourself as a MOD team member will probably detract from your level of professionalism in the interviewer's eyes, despite the fact your folio may be fantastic. Again, it's a brutal statement to make, but it's how I've seen industry types doing the hiring think of and refer to people applying for jobs using a MOD as experience from all fields of game development.
3) In terms of time and complexity (thinking of the programming aspect, mainly), it's going to be a lot easier and quicker to simply create a teaser trailer of an awesome game you'd like to see, and from that point turn it into a prototype of the game (a very small one, obviously) that could be used to actually potentially pitch the idea to a company, used as an in-game folio piece... whatever. Essentially, the trailer would be a way to make sure everything "worked" before going to the second level of complexity - that being, the actual programming and gameplay design (which could, of course, be done in tandem with development of the trailer). And, needless to say, the best part of this is that nothing really needs to be "complete" - no full "playable" levels beyond maybe the first (and even then it could just be a few short sequences to demonstrate the gist of gameplay), no need to completely code every element of the gameplay, no having to worry about "realistic" system requirements, and no networking bugs or play-balancing to sort through (aside from the "making it seem cool" objective).
Just to sum all that up in a neat little package: an awesome-looking game trailer that uses realistic "future" system requirements will probably attract more attention than a fully-developed MOD at this point in time, especially if it's done right. Most game publishers and developpers are now thinking in terms of "we're in the same league as Hollywood" (which is a bit dumb, but that's a whole other rant ;)), and so giving them something that's more "hollywood" than "game" in some senses is probably more likely to pay off... and, yes, again, that is a bit dumb. ;)
So what I'd propose is this:
1) Pick a game concept. Make it as high-falootin' as you want to - the aim's to make an awesome look and put across a really cool "Wow!" vibe, not to consider that annoying "practicality" stuff. =P
2) Pick an "estimated" platform and system requirements (consoles are on the up, the PC is in slow decline - but still has a technilogical edge, of course). Of course, just what sort of poly counts you'll be looking at will depend on the game style, but if we're looking at rendering humans I'd probably recommend a game that involves only a couple of people on-screen at once, tops, with them consisting of maybe 7-9000 polys (considering currently-developing titles are pushing 6500 a pop - referring to a game like the upcoming gladiator game from Lucasarts, though its name escapes me). This is simply to make the demo a bit future-proof, and give some room for being able to make something or someone look really, really cool. =)
3) Pick an engine. I'd suggest UT2k3, simply because Unreal Warfare is the newest and best-looking - unless you cam maybe come up with a way to tinker with the engine for Haegemonia. Of course, UT2k3 is also one of the most artist-aggirvating engines around, so... ;)
4) In terms of features, the trailer should be sure to push next-generation graphics technology. This is simply because everyone'll be wanting people with this type of experience within a year or two, and if you can show you've already dealt with it, you'll have an edge over nearly any MOD team (who tend to have to bypass that sort of thing for the sake of system requirements). As a suggestion, the "one to watch" would probably be real-time cloth (as well as the obligatory nifty use of shaders, of course).
5) The demo should run in real-time, NOT be pre-rendered (unless your personal aim isn't in the in-game artist field, in which case, knock yourself/selves out with the pre-rendered stuff =)).
6) I know I already mentioned this, but I can't stress it enough at this point: MAKE IT CINEMATIC. Put in a cool soundtrack and go for drama. It's getting to the point where game companies are beginning to hire cinematographers to lay out cutscenes, so try to bear that in mind. You want something that'll give people goose bumps while looking at it - again, practicality should take a back-seat to form and style for the trailer.
Well, I guess that's my not-so-quick pitch, really. If there are any questions about exactly what I mean in regards to something I've said, any comments, or some abuse-hurling that needs to be thrown my way in response, feel free to do so, natch. =)
- Grif
"I would tend to disagree with you, by far the most popular way to get into the game industry is to create a mod for a game."
True, it's popular. =) I don't think that really equates to its always being the best option by default, though. It's certainly probably the best way of applying for a DESIGN position, I'll grant you, because that's a notoriously difficult field in which to demonstrate a proficiency, but outside of that, MODs tend to be fairly behind the 8-ball in terms of showing truly "currently applicable" game development techniques. 'Sides which, if every man and his dog's submitting a MOD and a showreel, it could be a good idea to submit something that goes against the grain, right? =) A game pitch (of sorts) would be a fine way of doing that, to my mind. =)
"Sure the cinematic thing would be cool, but that would require a lot more time IMO, especially to craft the story of the cinematic, get the camera angles, panning etc correct and all the other things necesary to make a good cinematic."
True, that can be a pain in the butt, but it's still only scripting. That's a lot simpler than sorting out buggy netcode and reshaping whole chunks of game code into a whole other game right off the bat by a long ways. =) The fact it could be done without having to alter existing game code in any truly significant way for the "trailer" portion is a time-saver that can't be ignored, either, to my mind.
"The best thing to do is to actually get something done!"
I think the implication that this wouldn't count as "getting something done" might be a bit harsh. =) Besides, it wouldn't simply have to be "just a cinematic". As I said, it would probably make for quite a nice bridge into creating a gameplay demo of some kind, if it came to the point where people were so inclined. =) If it would make you feel any better, maybe think of it more as a "game pitch" than a simple cinematic - could put together a pretty spiffy pitch kit and all... again, if people were so inclined. =)
- Grif
By the last quote "The best thing to do is to actually get something done!" means that everything is all well and good, the cinematic, the mod, a game etc, is all well and good as long as it can be completed within a timeframe and polished too.
It's not finished until you're done the first 90% followed by the last 90%, meaning that to get something done in that sense requires tremendous effort to get all the gfx, menus, options, finished, and all the bugs ironed out.
quote:Originally posted by Grif
Howdy, folks. =)This is my first post 'round these parts, so I'm admittedly a bit unsure as to how my making this suggestion will go over. Thought it might be worth bringing up, however, so here goes. =)
Hey, that's what this forum is for [:)].. everyone's opinion (as long as it's constructive) is always valued on this site..!
You do make some very interesting points. I never knew industry types looked so poorly on those who participated on mods, although I can understand that they can't spend too much on playing any given mod supplied when there are hundreds of other applicants work that needs to get looked over. But hey, with the mod backed by this website, I'm sure they can find some extra time for it! [;)]
An animation/trailer like what your suggesting does make sense, especially when there are no programmers on board as yet. Mods are just more interesting to do though when you're able to play and have fun with your results. The net code isn't going to be touched at all for what was planned, and game code would be really small (I hope!), since the gameplay talked about would be a minor change to the UT2k3 game modes..
Anyway, having said all that - I have got to say that I won't be able to participate in the mod anymore unfortunately. I'm going to be heavily involved with a startup, working on a game content.
I know there's only a small handful of people interested in doing a collaboration, and I do hope they can get something off the ground and get some work going!
Daemin: "By the last quote "The best thing to do is to actually get something done!" means that everything is all well and good, the cinematic, the mod, a game etc, is all well and good as long as it can be completed within a timeframe and polished too."
Ahh, okay. Sorry, thought you meant something a bit different (obviously). =)
Souri: "You do make some very interesting points. I never knew industry types looked so poorly on those who participated on mods, although I can understand that they can't spend too much on playing any given mod supplied when there are hundreds of other applicants work that needs to get looked over."
Yeah, it's a bit scary given the amount of time most teams sink into such a thing. The mainy problem is that unless the MOD is quite heavily modified, it's sort of "the game it used to be with different graphics". The only people I know of who were hired on the basis of a viewed MOD while working in my old position were a couple of designers. In terms of art and programming, though, it was always viewed as more important to have done your OWN work - showreels seemed to be deemed more effective than in-game MOD work by the higher-ups in our art department, that's for sure. Programming work was generally considered more impressive if it was on a small game done from scratch. 3D work is important, of course, but I think the main problem there is that it can be a little obtuse as to just what (if anything) was touched in terms of actual 3D engine code when you create a MOD. If you can manipulate Direct 3D or DirectDraw on your own terms, though, as opposed to using someone else's base code, it seemed to be deemed a bit "better"... or that was my impression of how the programming guys thought about such things, anyway. =)
"Mods are just more interesting to do though when you're able to play and have fun with your results."
No denying that. =)
"The net code isn't going to be touched at all for what was planned, and game code would be really small (I hope!), since the gameplay talked about would be a minor change to the UT2k3 game modes.."
It all sounds decent and comparitively simple compared to, say, Natural Selection, yeah. =) I'm admittedly viewing this from a "folio piece" viewpoint, admittedly... just trying to think of what would make people in the "hiring" situation maybe take a bit more notice than they otherwise might. Not meaning that in a bad way, of course... the "guy who's seen too many bad applications" mindset that a lot of hiring types have can be a tough hurdle to overcome, is all. =)
"Anyway, having said all that - I have got to say that I won't be able to participate in the mod anymore unfortunately. I'm going to be heavily involved with a startup, working on a game content."
Good luck with it! =) Hope it goes well. =)
- Grif
We do have coders
and we don't have to change much at all for it to become greatly different to the original
Also i dissagree, most games companies know there is alot of talent in mod teams and alot of jobs now ask for development or mod experience. Sure they may be seen by the pros as rookies but would you put more trust in a rookie or someone with 0% experience?
The cinematic would be alot harder to do and take more man power and hours as well. Otherwise you end up with just an average trailer (which won't impress anyone) not a good one.
It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!
"Perhaps we should look at just making an 'add-on' package for UT. As we have no coders, yet a handful of artists, it shouldn't be too hard to set a theme and create some models & levels based around that."
Could work, sure. =) I'd be cautious about maybe going a slightly TOO simple option in some respects, though, I should add... I guess it sort of depends on how complex you think you can make the added art assets. =)
"Sure they may be seen by the pros as rookies but would you put more trust in a rookie or someone with 0% experience?"
Well, that's a bit of a no-brainer, I'll grant you. =) It wasn't really the point I was trying to make, though. =)
Anyway, I guess it's sort of a moot point in some respects... I can only say what I've seen and think personally, after all. =) If the MOD's indeed still going strong (which it sounds to be) then I wish those involved good luck with it... look forward to hearing more about it as things go ahead. =)
- Grif
quote:Originally posted by Daemin
Souri - so you're working with a start up eh? Can you give any specific details?
Not really.. they're some programmer friends of mine who have spent a good year or so working on an engine.. I'm redesigning their website too, so you should hear something about it soonish.
I would tend to disagree with you, by far the most popular way to get into the game industry is to create a mod for a game. For that generally you would need programmers but there are several on Sumea already. Still if you can make a mod for a game, a good one, and show it to the game company that made it, and they like it, chances are that you'll be most of the way to getting a job there.
Sure the cinematic thing would be cool, but that would require a lot more time IMO, especially to craft the story of the cinematic, get the camera angles, panning etc correct and all the other things necesary to make a good cinematic.
The best thing to do is to actually get something done!