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Sumea Challenge #4

Submitted by Malus on

Ok well first up thanks to Souri for picking my idea.
Honoured man.

--------------------------
GUIDLINES
--------------------------

CLOSING DATE:
27th of July to 28th of September (midnight, Sunday night).. two months!!

Competition open to Australians and New Zealanders only..

TOPIC:
Fantasy/medieval demonic darklord, the big bad guy/girl.(no sci fi)

STYLE:
Any you choose, manga, chibi, realism etc.

TECHINCAL CONSTRAINTS:
3500 polygons (tris)
1 x 512 or 4 x 256 texture sheet(s)
alpha map allowed.
no photosourcing, no cannabalism, no fan art models.

FOR SUBMISSION: "Souri change this if its not what you would prefer."
concept/reference art used
default software lit orthograpics (front, back, side etc)
untextured wireframe
uvw wire layout
texture flats
money shot - which can be lit and posed how ever you feel fit.

Not sure if Souri wants me to define the voting structure but just in case he does it is exactly what Pointy came up with in the discussion thread.

Note: Concepts not voted on (not everyone is Feng Zhu.)just whether you managed to adhere to you original idea and not deviate.

Post your entry/updates in this forum.. name the thread like:
Sumea Challenge #4 -3D- 'Your name'

Submitted by azmodai on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:12 AMPermalink

i'm in on this one. this will be a hell of a lot of fun to do.

Submitted by Ninja on Mon, 28/07/03 - 7:22 PMPermalink

Hey malus...

when you say default software lit [?]??? does that mean 3 point lighting ??? also untextured wireframe (what is that does that mean i cant use edge map [?])
sorry to ask its cause i just dunno whats the point of it..... i dunno still learning as usual and maybe wrong hehe..... [:D]?

cheers

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 7:58 PMPermalink

default lighting ninja, ie. no lights added by the user.

GI or advanced lighting is a not standard in many games so default max/maya renders with no added lighting is still closer to what you'd see in a game engine.

Submitted by Ninja on Mon, 28/07/03 - 8:07 PMPermalink

alright kool about the lights [:D] thank you.....

cheers,

chris....[:D]

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 8:38 PMPermalink

Can i use UT to render my character default lighting. Just i don't like the max default render. And I'm right in saying no other map beside alpha. (Spec, Lom, Nor, Bump.)

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:00 PMPermalink

No one likes maxs default lighting lol.
Don't know about the UT thing, everyones in the same boat and you have the money shot one so I don't think we need to.

No extra maps because people seems worried about it getting to complex.
I really wanted to normal map this guy too [:(] spoil sports.
Maybe next time hey.

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:07 PMPermalink

yes unrealed, I would render in the animation tab. Just an idea for those of you which want a better render which maybe fit in side the comp out line. I don't think i will be in on this one, i have samething else in the work and would like to get it done frist :(. I would love to do this one, cool comp I like this one alot.

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:10 PMPermalink

Thats a pity man, youve got a whole 2 months though.

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:14 PMPermalink

I had a female character in my head the last few days, which would fit this nice, I will see what i can do, i best get this other model done frist, I will then see if i have time, there are a few busy weekends in the next 2 months.

Can't wait to see what everyone eles comes up with

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:00 PMPermalink

As for the default lighting; what about pushing the ambient lighting way up, so all you see is the texture? It just seems odd to go with max's default lighting...

Submitted by Pantmonger on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:13 PMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by smeg

As for the default lighting; what about pushing the ambient lighting way up, so all you see is the texture? It just seems odd to go with max's default lighting...

Only problem with that idea is that it suits certain types of texture better, Dark realistic textures are sometimes dependant on shadows to show them properly while more cell shaded styles care little for full self illumination (hell a lot of the time you add a bit of self illumintation to get the effect right with cartoon style models)

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

Pantmonger

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:32 PMPermalink

quote:
1 x 512 or 4 x 256 texture sheet(s)
alpha map allowed.
no photosourcing, no cannabalism, no fan art models.

Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:36 PMPermalink

512 x 512 = 262144
256 x 256 x 4 = 262144

Dont worry, its the same texture space, just divided up into smaller chunks...

Submitted by Major Clod on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:42 PMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr


Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

4 x (256x256) = 262144 pixels
1 x (512x512) = 262144 pixels

They are one in the same

I only have one question, and that is why are we using such a small texture size when the polycount is quite high? UT uses two 1024x1024 textures per character, JK2 uses at least that amount scattered over many smaller textures. Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

Submitted by Pointy on Mon, 28/07/03 - 11:36 PMPermalink

Yes but i think you have to factor in things such as not all games are pc based fps running on gforce yadda yadda yadda.

I think the limited texture size is good for people wanting to improve thier unwraping skills.

Submitted by Pantmonger on Tue, 29/07/03 - 12:14 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod


Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

A lot of games still don't, esp on things like PS2.
Pantmonger

Submitted by Doord on Tue, 29/07/03 - 12:58 AMPermalink

the texture size is a little low. That is less then quake 3.

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 2:41 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod


quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr


Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

4 x (256x256) = 262144 pixels
1 x (512x512) = 262144 pixels

They are one in the same

I only have one question, and that is why are we using such a small texture size when the polycount is quite high? UT uses two 1024x1024 textures per character, JK2 uses at least that amount scattered over many smaller textures. Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

I stand corrected - wasn't thinking properly. I am also of the opinion that the texture size is a bit low. And also, does it HAVE to be medieval? Or can it just be a demon lord? Medieval pins it in one category and we'll probably have a whole lot of similar entries...

Submitted by smeg on Tue, 29/07/03 - 2:54 AMPermalink

quote:Medieval pins it in one category and we'll probably have a whole lot of similar entries...

second

Submitted by Pantmonger on Tue, 29/07/03 - 4:12 AMPermalink

Ok, im just going to go on record and say, I am cool with this challenge.
Its has limits and thats part of the challenge.
512 maps are not that unusual, especially for things like PS2 and PC games that have a large number of characters present on screen at one time.
As for the "Medevil theme = lots of similar models", Only if your not being creative, take Dungeons and Dragons for example. There is a whole book coming out in shortly on Demon characters and in the past there have been demon only monster manual supplements and thats only the D&D take on medevil demons. There are heaps of others from those of christian origin to those of asian cultures.

The theme will allow us to show what we can do with an old and familiar theme, what new things can we make.

In the end this is a comp, and no one has a gun to your head. If you dont like it, dont enter.

Pantmonger

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 29/07/03 - 4:31 AMPermalink

Wow go away for a second and all hell breaks loose.

Texture size:
most games still have lower map sizes, this is pretty decent for console games and I feel it challenges texture artists to do a good job, Ive seen a few artists on polycount do UT2k3 models with 1 x 256 texture that killed peoples 1 x 1024 textures.
Remember this is meant to challenge you?

Lighting:
You have a money shot to make it look spiffy, the default lighting orthographics is more for game engine-esque lighting, why is that a problem, don't like the lighting then put more effort into the final shot to show us how cool the model can look?

Medieval:
With the fact that you can do any style like chibi, manga, realistic I think you get enough range to express yourself, medieval demon is the topic not style, next you'll say demonic means they'll all be similar.
I chose medieval just to keep it fantasy based not brimming with techno weapons, theres tonnes of range in fantasy if you use your imagination.

Ok, this whole thing about everyone having a problem with the topic is getting really old, its been 1 day and look at the amount of problems.
Not everyone will agree I know, but there is nothing here that is hard, wrong or not industry viable, the map size is more than decent, unless like Pointy said your thinking only PC FPS games which tend to be texture hogs.

The way I see it we can
a: just get on and do it and be glad that it challenges our abilities.
or
b: someone else can come up with a really nice easy 10000 polygon, 12 x 4096 map, open ended topic thats safe for everyone.

I for one just want to get modelling.

Dean.

Submitted by ironikart on Tue, 29/07/03 - 7:55 AMPermalink

yeah, I'm happy with the topic. I've gone through a few wildy different ideas already so I don't think there will be alot of overlapping on ideas. The texture size is a little low, but that just makes it more challenging. See how much detail you can squeeze onto the sheet to get every last pixel out of it... should make the entries very interesting!

Submitted by Major Clod on Tue, 29/07/03 - 9:59 AMPermalink

Ok settle down people, was just wondering about the texture size thats all. Topic is fine with me, I'll be definately entering this one.

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:07 PMPermalink

quote:
As for the "Medevil theme = lots of similar models", Only if your not being creative, take Dungeons and Dragons for example.

It's a designers job to question the brief. I merely sought clarification.

quote:There are heaps of others from those of christian origin to those of asian cultures.

I interpreted Medieval to mean 'English/European dark ages (Relating or belonging to the Western Middle Ages) as opposed to fantastical. It's not commonly used to describe other cultures.

Cheers to Malus for clearing that up -- Fantasy is a better word. Now I am on the same page.

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:30 PMPermalink

John: Glad that cleared it up some, I amended the topic guidlines to say fantasy also.
I still believe even if it was just western dark ages that there is a tonne of scope for everyone though.

Just on the texture size, my tweedle dee/dum guy was done with 4 x 256 maps and although I'm don't claim to be the best texture artist (far from it) I was really pleased and suprised with the amount of detail I could get in.
I used to do all my textures at 1024 x 1024 and have recently realised its really not needed unless your spending large amounts of time doing extreme closeups on a model in game:

not the best example but here goes.
[img]http://www.inkmancomic.com/dean/WIP/tweedletexture.jpg[/img]

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:57 PMPermalink

That's an excellent texture. The sagging jowls and fat rolls work well.

Submitted by ironikart on Tue, 29/07/03 - 9:16 PMPermalink

That's alot of detail for such a small map. Nice work!

Submitted by Doord on Wed, 30/07/03 - 1:19 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Malus

I used to do all my textures at 1024 x 1024 and have recently realised its really not needed unless your spending large amounts of time doing extreme closeups on a model in game:

I'm not trying to change the comp, because I'm not in it this time but just remeber that you don't have control of how close you can get to a character in a game. That is up to the player (most games). 512 is not used in most new games with poly counts that high, console or not. Besides PS2 because of 4 meg texture memory.

I do think it is more of a Challenge to do large textures then small, because to get a comp winning texture you would have to have huge amount more detail then a map half the size. In fact two times as much detail. But you are right the are a lot of poeple which don't use there texture size how they sould, and also poly count. but that is something they need to work on :) Model on polycount show this well with a lot of new artist trying to work out how there model look so pain conpared to some of the amzing tuff that turn up there once evey blue moon.

Submitted by Pointy on Wed, 30/07/03 - 2:35 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Doord

just remeber that you don't have control of how close you can get to a character in a game.

true, but you should also take into consideration that gamers dont stop to look at the textures, most characters are a blur on the screen and all you can make out is the siloette.

Posted by Malus on

Ok well first up thanks to Souri for picking my idea.
Honoured man.

--------------------------
GUIDLINES
--------------------------

CLOSING DATE:
27th of July to 28th of September (midnight, Sunday night).. two months!!

Competition open to Australians and New Zealanders only..

TOPIC:
Fantasy/medieval demonic darklord, the big bad guy/girl.(no sci fi)

STYLE:
Any you choose, manga, chibi, realism etc.

TECHINCAL CONSTRAINTS:
3500 polygons (tris)
1 x 512 or 4 x 256 texture sheet(s)
alpha map allowed.
no photosourcing, no cannabalism, no fan art models.

FOR SUBMISSION: "Souri change this if its not what you would prefer."
concept/reference art used
default software lit orthograpics (front, back, side etc)
untextured wireframe
uvw wire layout
texture flats
money shot - which can be lit and posed how ever you feel fit.

Not sure if Souri wants me to define the voting structure but just in case he does it is exactly what Pointy came up with in the discussion thread.

Note: Concepts not voted on (not everyone is Feng Zhu.)just whether you managed to adhere to you original idea and not deviate.

Post your entry/updates in this forum.. name the thread like:
Sumea Challenge #4 -3D- 'Your name'


Submitted by azmodai on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:12 AMPermalink

i'm in on this one. this will be a hell of a lot of fun to do.

Submitted by Ninja on Mon, 28/07/03 - 7:22 PMPermalink

Hey malus...

when you say default software lit [?]??? does that mean 3 point lighting ??? also untextured wireframe (what is that does that mean i cant use edge map [?])
sorry to ask its cause i just dunno whats the point of it..... i dunno still learning as usual and maybe wrong hehe..... [:D]?

cheers

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 7:58 PMPermalink

default lighting ninja, ie. no lights added by the user.

GI or advanced lighting is a not standard in many games so default max/maya renders with no added lighting is still closer to what you'd see in a game engine.

Submitted by Ninja on Mon, 28/07/03 - 8:07 PMPermalink

alright kool about the lights [:D] thank you.....

cheers,

chris....[:D]

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 8:38 PMPermalink

Can i use UT to render my character default lighting. Just i don't like the max default render. And I'm right in saying no other map beside alpha. (Spec, Lom, Nor, Bump.)

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:00 PMPermalink

No one likes maxs default lighting lol.
Don't know about the UT thing, everyones in the same boat and you have the money shot one so I don't think we need to.

No extra maps because people seems worried about it getting to complex.
I really wanted to normal map this guy too [:(] spoil sports.
Maybe next time hey.

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:07 PMPermalink

yes unrealed, I would render in the animation tab. Just an idea for those of you which want a better render which maybe fit in side the comp out line. I don't think i will be in on this one, i have samething else in the work and would like to get it done frist :(. I would love to do this one, cool comp I like this one alot.

Submitted by Malus on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:10 PMPermalink

Thats a pity man, youve got a whole 2 months though.

Submitted by Doord on Mon, 28/07/03 - 9:14 PMPermalink

I had a female character in my head the last few days, which would fit this nice, I will see what i can do, i best get this other model done frist, I will then see if i have time, there are a few busy weekends in the next 2 months.

Can't wait to see what everyone eles comes up with

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:00 PMPermalink

As for the default lighting; what about pushing the ambient lighting way up, so all you see is the texture? It just seems odd to go with max's default lighting...

Submitted by Pantmonger on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:13 PMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by smeg

As for the default lighting; what about pushing the ambient lighting way up, so all you see is the texture? It just seems odd to go with max's default lighting...

Only problem with that idea is that it suits certain types of texture better, Dark realistic textures are sometimes dependant on shadows to show them properly while more cell shaded styles care little for full self illumination (hell a lot of the time you add a bit of self illumintation to get the effect right with cartoon style models)

Thats my 2 cents anyway.

Pantmonger

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:32 PMPermalink

quote:
1 x 512 or 4 x 256 texture sheet(s)
alpha map allowed.
no photosourcing, no cannabalism, no fan art models.

Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:36 PMPermalink

512 x 512 = 262144
256 x 256 x 4 = 262144

Dont worry, its the same texture space, just divided up into smaller chunks...

Submitted by Major Clod on Mon, 28/07/03 - 10:42 PMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr


Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

4 x (256x256) = 262144 pixels
1 x (512x512) = 262144 pixels

They are one in the same

I only have one question, and that is why are we using such a small texture size when the polycount is quite high? UT uses two 1024x1024 textures per character, JK2 uses at least that amount scattered over many smaller textures. Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

Submitted by Pointy on Mon, 28/07/03 - 11:36 PMPermalink

Yes but i think you have to factor in things such as not all games are pc based fps running on gforce yadda yadda yadda.

I think the limited texture size is good for people wanting to improve thier unwraping skills.

Submitted by Pantmonger on Tue, 29/07/03 - 12:14 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod


Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

A lot of games still don't, esp on things like PS2.
Pantmonger

Submitted by Doord on Tue, 29/07/03 - 12:58 AMPermalink

the texture size is a little low. That is less then quake 3.

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 2:41 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod


quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr


Should that read 2 X 512 Maps? That would equal 1024, just as 4 X 256 = 1024. Otherwise, I'd see little advantage to using the 512 map aside from a slightly greater level of detail.

EDIT: Fixing quotations.

4 x (256x256) = 262144 pixels
1 x (512x512) = 262144 pixels

They are one in the same

I only have one question, and that is why are we using such a small texture size when the polycount is quite high? UT uses two 1024x1024 textures per character, JK2 uses at least that amount scattered over many smaller textures. Just wondering thats all, since most games these days use a fair bit above one 512 map.

I stand corrected - wasn't thinking properly. I am also of the opinion that the texture size is a bit low. And also, does it HAVE to be medieval? Or can it just be a demon lord? Medieval pins it in one category and we'll probably have a whole lot of similar entries...

Submitted by smeg on Tue, 29/07/03 - 2:54 AMPermalink

quote:Medieval pins it in one category and we'll probably have a whole lot of similar entries...

second

Submitted by Pantmonger on Tue, 29/07/03 - 4:12 AMPermalink

Ok, im just going to go on record and say, I am cool with this challenge.
Its has limits and thats part of the challenge.
512 maps are not that unusual, especially for things like PS2 and PC games that have a large number of characters present on screen at one time.
As for the "Medevil theme = lots of similar models", Only if your not being creative, take Dungeons and Dragons for example. There is a whole book coming out in shortly on Demon characters and in the past there have been demon only monster manual supplements and thats only the D&D take on medevil demons. There are heaps of others from those of christian origin to those of asian cultures.

The theme will allow us to show what we can do with an old and familiar theme, what new things can we make.

In the end this is a comp, and no one has a gun to your head. If you dont like it, dont enter.

Pantmonger

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 29/07/03 - 4:31 AMPermalink

Wow go away for a second and all hell breaks loose.

Texture size:
most games still have lower map sizes, this is pretty decent for console games and I feel it challenges texture artists to do a good job, Ive seen a few artists on polycount do UT2k3 models with 1 x 256 texture that killed peoples 1 x 1024 textures.
Remember this is meant to challenge you?

Lighting:
You have a money shot to make it look spiffy, the default lighting orthographics is more for game engine-esque lighting, why is that a problem, don't like the lighting then put more effort into the final shot to show us how cool the model can look?

Medieval:
With the fact that you can do any style like chibi, manga, realistic I think you get enough range to express yourself, medieval demon is the topic not style, next you'll say demonic means they'll all be similar.
I chose medieval just to keep it fantasy based not brimming with techno weapons, theres tonnes of range in fantasy if you use your imagination.

Ok, this whole thing about everyone having a problem with the topic is getting really old, its been 1 day and look at the amount of problems.
Not everyone will agree I know, but there is nothing here that is hard, wrong or not industry viable, the map size is more than decent, unless like Pointy said your thinking only PC FPS games which tend to be texture hogs.

The way I see it we can
a: just get on and do it and be glad that it challenges our abilities.
or
b: someone else can come up with a really nice easy 10000 polygon, 12 x 4096 map, open ended topic thats safe for everyone.

I for one just want to get modelling.

Dean.

Submitted by ironikart on Tue, 29/07/03 - 7:55 AMPermalink

yeah, I'm happy with the topic. I've gone through a few wildy different ideas already so I don't think there will be alot of overlapping on ideas. The texture size is a little low, but that just makes it more challenging. See how much detail you can squeeze onto the sheet to get every last pixel out of it... should make the entries very interesting!

Submitted by Major Clod on Tue, 29/07/03 - 9:59 AMPermalink

Ok settle down people, was just wondering about the texture size thats all. Topic is fine with me, I'll be definately entering this one.

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:07 PMPermalink

quote:
As for the "Medevil theme = lots of similar models", Only if your not being creative, take Dungeons and Dragons for example.

It's a designers job to question the brief. I merely sought clarification.

quote:There are heaps of others from those of christian origin to those of asian cultures.

I interpreted Medieval to mean 'English/European dark ages (Relating or belonging to the Western Middle Ages) as opposed to fantastical. It's not commonly used to describe other cultures.

Cheers to Malus for clearing that up -- Fantasy is a better word. Now I am on the same page.

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:30 PMPermalink

John: Glad that cleared it up some, I amended the topic guidlines to say fantasy also.
I still believe even if it was just western dark ages that there is a tonne of scope for everyone though.

Just on the texture size, my tweedle dee/dum guy was done with 4 x 256 maps and although I'm don't claim to be the best texture artist (far from it) I was really pleased and suprised with the amount of detail I could get in.
I used to do all my textures at 1024 x 1024 and have recently realised its really not needed unless your spending large amounts of time doing extreme closeups on a model in game:

not the best example but here goes.
[img]http://www.inkmancomic.com/dean/WIP/tweedletexture.jpg[/img]

Submitted by JonathanKerr on Tue, 29/07/03 - 8:57 PMPermalink

That's an excellent texture. The sagging jowls and fat rolls work well.

Submitted by ironikart on Tue, 29/07/03 - 9:16 PMPermalink

That's alot of detail for such a small map. Nice work!

Submitted by Doord on Wed, 30/07/03 - 1:19 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Malus

I used to do all my textures at 1024 x 1024 and have recently realised its really not needed unless your spending large amounts of time doing extreme closeups on a model in game:

I'm not trying to change the comp, because I'm not in it this time but just remeber that you don't have control of how close you can get to a character in a game. That is up to the player (most games). 512 is not used in most new games with poly counts that high, console or not. Besides PS2 because of 4 meg texture memory.

I do think it is more of a Challenge to do large textures then small, because to get a comp winning texture you would have to have huge amount more detail then a map half the size. In fact two times as much detail. But you are right the are a lot of poeple which don't use there texture size how they sould, and also poly count. but that is something they need to work on :) Model on polycount show this well with a lot of new artist trying to work out how there model look so pain conpared to some of the amzing tuff that turn up there once evey blue moon.

Submitted by Pointy on Wed, 30/07/03 - 2:35 AMPermalink

quote:Originally posted by Doord

just remeber that you don't have control of how close you can get to a character in a game.

true, but you should also take into consideration that gamers dont stop to look at the textures, most characters are a blur on the screen and all you can make out is the siloette.