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What Female Gamers Want

Submitted by Jacana on
Forum

Here is an interesting little article:
http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/editorials/females.shtm

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Submitted by Leviron on Thu, 05/06/03 - 7:28 AM Permalink

Today in the afternoon or something channel 10 did some kind of news report on this topic...it was very funny. The interviewed a producer and a gamer.

Submitted by Echo on Sat, 14/06/03 - 1:36 PM Permalink

This flame war is one of the inherent problems with a discusion of this type of topic. People get too upset over things like sexism and sterotyping that the actual issue is never addressed.

When people start complaining about 'grouping' nasty things happen, soon enough we will not be alowed to use the terms 'gamer' and 'non-gamer' without someone causing a rucus!

Perhaps the topic should have been "What currently-non-gamers who are not primarily driven by violence and/or sex in games gamers want", this would have applied to both males and females and would have probally allowed the issue to actually be discussed. However, the topic was directed to females specifically I believe because:

  • 1. IN GENERAL- most games are already written for males, by males (and usually about males); there is less reason for discussion
  • 2. IN GENERAL- males and females are atracted to different types of entertainment, thus the issue as to what is desired in games must be discussed seperatly (although some items will be the same) much in the way one would discuss a game for a child and for an adult seperatley
  • 3. It is rather well known what males want in games (see point 1.), however it is less addressed what females want

Saying that females (in general) want to play different sorts of games is not sexist in any way, saying that females cannot or should not play games is, as is saying that females should play or should not play a certain type of game.

I would like to know if anyone has an opinion on what a female, currently-non-gamer would like to see in a game:
Guys reach into your more sensative (not to say that a female MUST be like this, just that -in general- this is the type that is currently lacking games and is a wide market to expand the industry to) sides.
Girls please try not to be offended by anything said, we poor males are still trying to learn and understand what offends and what doesnt, and this varies greatly between peer-groups; instead try to tell us what is desired in games for you.

Please remember; the topic was posted to discover what females want in games; this is helping to allow equality in one of the majorly lacking industrys (another one being sports) and therefore is actualy against sexual discrimination.

Submitted by davidcoen on Sun, 15/06/03 - 9:04 AM Permalink

you mean female gamer want more than guys with cute butts running around?

Submitted by Leviron on Sun, 15/06/03 - 7:17 PM Permalink

The non-gamers probably want to see more female and male characters with a better fashion sense (not contemporary but it has to look good). Characters could wear stuff that is more practical. Something that just covers the nipple and genital area is not practical for battle even in a fantasy world.

Some girls won't pick up that bikini beach ball game because of the tags that come with it. The tag that says "you're lesbian or bisexual when you play this game".

Girls usually don't go into a shop if there's only a bunch of male gamers looking at the hot looking chicks on the cover of the latest videogame release. It is intimidating and they just walk past and lose interest and will associate that scene with "those games are just for perverted young guys and it?s not cool to play them". (Things like this happens in shopping centres, you just stand outside the shop and watch what happens...maybe you'd like to do it for marketing research)

Its just sad that most of the successful game titles that make it into Europe and Australia are the ones that get classed as "perverted".

As a female, I don't want to see more "sex sells" or more idiots running around with tight pants or pants half way down their butt with their boxers showing. People, that boxers and with pants half way down look is gross.

Submitted by redwyre on Mon, 16/06/03 - 5:22 AM Permalink

I agree, if the "game fashion" is not practical, it can ruin - or at least damage - the game world.

Here's some sad, there is another Tomb Raider game coming out: http://www.tombraider.com/
And they are still heavily pimping Lara.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Mon, 16/06/03 - 3:57 PM Permalink

I've just read this whole thread and I really think this topic needs to be shoved down a deep dark hole and never resurrected. For sanity's sake can someone close this abysmal thread? What is the point of asking What do female gamers want? When A. - You won't listen to what any of the female gamers who are on the list want because they are already gamers and don't count. (Which is ridiculous because did you ever consider that at some point these female gamers were female non-gamers) and B. - There are no female non-gamers on the list so you can't ask them. You can't just sit there and think `gee, what do female gamers want?' and then make up an answer. If you really want to know go and do some research. Survey some female non-gamers and see what they say (and hope they don't eat you alive when you call them `chicks' or mention any of the other sexist guff that this conversation is riddled with). And if you survive that why not go and survey some male non-gamers and see if the responses are any different.

Submitted by souri on Mon, 16/06/03 - 9:17 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by Leviron

The non-gamers probably want to see more female and male characters with a better fashion sense (not contemporary but it has to look good). Characters could wear stuff that is more practical. Something that just covers the nipple and genital area is not practical for battle even in a fantasy world.

Just an observation - Sure, it doesn't make any real practical sense, but scantily clad females with minimal armour protection + lots of skin have been part of the fantasy world (Movies, board games etc) long before computer games were popular. And I do agree that some of the fashion sense in games are shocking. I did have a picture that illustrates your point EXACTLY, but I seem to have misplaced it. It was from a recent FPS.. I remember a screenshot that had two female comabatants with you in a large room (there were some discarded clothing dummies in the back). One of the females was a blonde with freckles, and was wearing a tight shiny spandex shirt, and a tight black miniskirt. I kid you not! There are such more ways to make a female more appealing than going for the real crass, cheap look. Definately a lack of imagination on the developers part. If anyone knows the game or that picture in particular I'm talking about, please post it here.

quote:Originally posted by bunnitos
I've just read this whole thread and I really think this topic needs to be shoved down a deep dark hole and never resurrected. For sanity's sake can someone close this abysmal thread? What is the point of asking What do female gamers want? When A. - You won't listen to what any of the female gamers who are on the list want because they are already gamers and don't count. (Which is ridiculous because did you ever consider that at some point these female gamers were female non-gamers) and B. - There are no female non-gamers on the list so you can't ask them. You can't just sit there and think `gee, what do female gamers want?' and then make up an answer.

I think there have been some really good arguments and suggestions on what females want from games - there's nothing wrong with speculating on the situation. Granted, it's not going to be as informative as a proper survey, but I've found most of the discussion here fairly intelligent and constructive.

Submitted by souri on Mon, 16/06/03 - 10:12 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by Leviron

Some girls won't pick up that bikini beach ball game because of the tags that come with it. The tag that says "you're lesbian or bisexual when you play this game".

Dead Or Alive Volleyball, or Outlaw Volleyball (or Redneck trailer-park trash Volleyball as I would call it!) are pretty much targetted at the male market. If they were catered for the female market, I'm sure they would be remarkably different games.

Submitted by Maitrek on Mon, 16/06/03 - 10:26 PM Permalink

Alrighty then - I'll attempt to utilise the female gamers in this forum to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.
In fact, anyone can answer this....
Who did you turn to when you needed conversation about playing some games, or some advice, or just to play multiplayer with? Were they predominantly male or female...

Submitted by Blitz on Tue, 17/06/03 - 9:31 AM Permalink

Hmmm, just an interesting question souri, if Dead or Alive beach volleyball were to be targeted more at "female gamers", how do you think the game would change? The only change that i would foresee would be adding a few male characters for the female eyecandy. As for the gameplay, the game seems more directed at the ..."stereotypical" female market, with focus on emotions, relationships, etc. than the "sterotypical" male market of action/violence.
CYer, Blitz

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:31 AM Permalink

Maitrek Wrote

quote: Alrighty then - I'll attempt to utilise the female gamers in this forum to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.
In fact, anyone can answer this....
Who did you turn to when you needed conversation about playing some games, or some advice, or just to play multiplayer with? Were they predominantly male or female...

I presume that you're trying to prove that female gamers do not have a support network of other female gamers. If that is what you're trying to prove, I'm not sure that it's true, but it's an interesting, if somewhat cyclic point. The problem is if there aren't that many female gamers overall of course there aren't going to be that many female gamers to turn to for advice or gameplay. If this is the reason that female non-gamers don't become female gamers it's not going to get any better is it? At some point there were only a few male gamers as well, but surprisingly now there are more. So you'd think by now there'd be more female gamers too. Why aren't there?

Well perhaps it has something to do with the way that they are alienated by the gaming community. Perhaps they're tired of people presuming that they want something different. I don't know, I haven't asked them. I can ask my own opinion or that of my female friends but that's not going to count for all female gamers and non-gamers, it's just going to be the opinion of a few gamers and non-gamers who happen to be female. And they're probably going to have different opinions.

I do know that I personally won't go to a LAN because when I have been there the attitudes of some of the male gamers have been abysmally sexist to say the least. Sexism in gaming seems to be pretty embedded and if not encouraged it certainly doesn't seem to be actually discouraged. I play games with both my female and male friends but I don't generally discuss or play games with the gaming community at large because it's hard to get through the crap. (Case in point, this conversation which is making me seriously consider whether getting involved was worthwhile.)

I don't usually ask for advice on games because I like to figure things out for myself and if I can't there's always strategy guides and the internet. If I do discuss games with my friends it depends more on whether they've played the game or not than on whether they are female or male. So I don't feel like I'm lacking a female support network, nor do I feel like I need a specifically female support network.

The only conclusions that I can draw from my own experience are, perhaps there are more female gamers out there than you think there are, they just don't want to interact with the mainstream gaming community, or if there aren't that many female gamers out there perhaps the problem is that such a big issue is made out of the fact that they are female and want to play games that it's too much hassle to be bothered.

Souri Wrote

quote: I think there have been some really good arguments and suggestions on what females want from games - there's nothing wrong with speculating on the situation. Granted, it's not going to be as informative as a proper survey, but I've found most of the discussion here fairly intelligent and constructive.

Well, apparently this discussion is going to continue, though I'd have to say I see very little point when the opinions presented are, on the most part, uninformed and offensive to the very market that is being targeted. How can you address the needs of female gamers when you are insulting them?

I don't presume to express the opinion of all female gamers but without any evidence how can you say that they want something different to what male gamers want? You may as well say all female gamers want more of the colour orange in their games, there isn't that much of the colour orange in games, and there aren't many female gamers and so obviously female gamers want more of the colour orange in their games.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:52 AM Permalink

Btw, I personally don't really have a problem with scantily clad women in games. I think it can get ridiculous when taken to extremes but it only actually becomes really annoying to me when there's no content other than, `here's some scantily clad women'. I'm not going to try and say people shouldn't play that sort of game it just isn't really my thing. I do like DOA2 and I have no problem with the costumes in that, it's one of my favourite fighting games. As far as the fashion thing goes, that's really all just personal taste, I find hot pink really gross, and I've got to agree on the Brittney Spears `look at my butt' style being a real loser, but there are plenty of girls out there who actually wear that stuff and somebody also has to like the boxer shorts sticking out above baggy pants thing or why the hell are all those guys doing it? Everyone has different tastes.

Submitted by Jacana on Tue, 17/06/03 - 9:17 PM Permalink

Just to add more fodder to the discussion - I found this article:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1889.asp

Some of the interesting parts:
Females, on the other hand, want to know exactly how a game works before they play. They're the people reading the manual.

Women control 80% of every dollar spent. Women will willingly spend $100 on shoes if they feel like it's worth the money. Right now, women in general don't feel like games are worth the money. But if there's a game that women like, they are very loyal to the brand and will give referrals to everybody. The shelf life for games that females play is much longer.

Submitted by Daemin on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:47 PM Permalink

quote:women in general don't feel like games are worth the money

Some games are definetly not worth spending $80 over for a 10 hour gaming experience, since for that money you could go see 8 movies, which is about 16 hours of entertainment. Most FPS games now limit themselves to about 10 hours of gameplay or so, which I think is dissapointing.

quote:I personally won't go to a LAN because when I have been there the attitudes of some of the male gamers have been abysmally sexist to say the least. Sexism in gaming seems to be pretty embedded and if not encouraged it certainly doesn't seem to be actually discouraged

I guess it stems from the fact that very few females go to LAN's, which makes it a pretty male-only domain, and in turn it keeps females away, a catch 22 of sorts.

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 17/06/03 - 11:15 PM Permalink

Echo wrote

quote:"People get too upset over things like sexism and sterotyping that the actual issue is never addressed."

Too upset? I think people getting upset over any form of discrimination is a good thing, never 'too' upset in my opinion, maybe the fact these type of threads fall into flame wars is because people post derogatory comments that offend people.

It could have been a good hypothetical discussion but when people start reverting to Victorian (timeline not state)idealoligies about what defines a womens role, abilities, needs etc it starts offending, therefore flames appear.

Women and men may be socially different but I don't feel the industry should be asking a diffenrent question.
Instead of, "what we can do to 'bring' females into games?"
I think the industry should concentrate on "what we can do to stop making them not feel welcome?"

Bunnitos brang up a good point about LAN's, one could say LAN's are a close correlation to a large portion of the games industry, they generally are full of loud, sexist, racist, homopohobic banter and remarks.
Hey I too get caught up in the atmosphere so I'm not saying Im a perfect guy, but has anyone ever stopped to think how threatened and uncomfortable females might feel.

Now if this is the what the average gamer is like, and I think it might be, can we see that these sorts of attitudes and the attitude of developers to pander to them are maybe contributing to stopping those females who might be intersted from getting into gaming?

On a side note, when I was studying at qantm we had a couple of girls studying with us and during one LAN we were having (I know we should have been working) this one guy screams out "I'm going to f*#king rape you b@#ch!" to a male counterpart who had just killed him.
Now one girl took offense and asked him nicely to have some respect and he got all agressive and threatened her, I had to tell him to back off.
Now I know this is probably very uncommon but that may be the kind of thing that is seen and may cause females to be not that into our community, hell it made me livid and I'm a guy.

Last thing I promise. [:P]
Don't add "girly" game content thats irrevant because girls play games for the same reason guys do, just tone down the sexism and hire more females to build games. Hell we all want more of the opposite sex around us right.

[:D]

Submitted by Maitrek on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:34 AM Permalink

Bunnitos - you may hate me for this - but I think you help substantiate a few of my thoughts lying around the place.

I'm not sure the gender issue is cyclic myself - I didn't ask the question to prove myself right, I asked it to get a better understanding. I have a feeling there is an element of it, but again, I don't think it's the actual important issue. That's something that game designers can't change at all.

Contrary to popular opinion on this board, I ask alot of questions out of curiosity *and* a desire to better understand the question and the answer. I don't ask things expecting some kind of answer that I already have in my head, if I knew the answer I wouldn't ask :)

quote:I don't usually ask for advice on games because I like to figure things out for myself and if I can't there's always strategy guides and the internet

This is exactly what I'm talking about - in a round-a-bout way. This is a *characteristic* that separates gamers from non-gamers at the moment, and it's a big FLAW in our games. I can't go on about it enough - people always seem to gloss over it though -> like it's some shit attempt to divert this discussion from the pit of stereotyping that it always digs itself into (which it is - good observations ppl [^] )

quote:So I don't feel like I'm lacking a female support network, nor do I feel like I need a specifically female support network

A better question is do you feel you need any form of support network? If the answer is no then it adds weight to my thoughts that games aren't even close to being an element of social activity/structure. Think about going to the movies, going to the pub, playing sports - those can really form a cornerstone of social activity/opinion/discussion. Whereas games? Not even close. It's an intersting issue to debate, but no one here would give a shit as they are content with games as they are, not as what they could be.

quote:Well, apparently this discussion is going to continue, though I'd have to say I see very little point when the opinions presented are, on the most part, uninformed and offensive to the very market that is being targeted. How can you address the needs of female gamers when you are insulting them?

As a note if any female on this board is in anyway personally insulted/offended by something I say - tell me - I'd much rather know so I can be more careful next time. I've never claimed to be perfect :)

As for the scantily clad women problem? I'm not sure where that comes from, alot of it is marketing BS enforced on artists, some of it is just artists using sexual imagery for some kind of character definition, some of it is pure artist wank. I don't think it detracts from a good game, but I don't think it makes a crap game good. Tomb Raider was a damn good game, unfortunately it's success sent the wrong message to marketing - and there are other examples as well. I doubt it will piss off females in general or decrease their enjoyment of a game, (they are no where near as homophobic as males), but it's not going to attract them to the games - that's for sure.

And lastly - I've never really been to many LANs, and the lans that I have attended are always "sausage fests", but I can only imagine the result could end up being somewhat degrading/humiliating for any female in attendence - obviously depending on the group of gamers.
Unfortunately it seems that this world's inhabitants still haven't *entirely* moved on from the "boys will be boys, girls will be girls" concept.

Submitted by Brain on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:36 AM Permalink

quote:As a female, I don't want to see more "sex sells" or more idiots running around with tight pants or pants half way down their butt with their boxers showing. People, that boxers and with pants half way down look is gross.

"That's one of the most basic rules that we all know, that the underwear goes INSIDE THE PANTS! That's why it's called UNDER-FUCKIN'-WEAR!" - Dennis Leary

Needless to say, I totally agree @:-)

Submitted by Jacana on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:47 AM Permalink

Ok - to change the idea a bit here....
Instead of trying to devlop a game to pull in the female market what about games that are "gender neutral" in design. Maybe looking at designing a game to -not- target a certain group is a better idea.

There are heaps of PS2 and Nintendo games that seem to not focus on gender what so ever - but just a damn good game. I know if I could afford it I would buy a few consoles and take a look at some great looking games that I am missing out on as a pc user.

Submitted by Maitrek on Wed, 18/06/03 - 5:42 AM Permalink

That's a fair enough proposition for a hobby developer, but from what I can tell, if you can't name a 'market' to the big publishing executives, and can convince them why this game is going to be worth selling etc, then you might as well hit the streets.

I dunno - any game development producers/designers out there that have more info on this side of things?

As a purely hobby game "developer", the games I work for can be whatever I want them to be - but I know that the reality of games development for profit is different.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Wed, 18/06/03 - 8:24 AM Permalink

quote:Jacana Wrote: Instead of trying to devlop a game to pull in the female market what about games that are "gender neutral" in design.

I think that Jacana is right on the money here, and just because it's gender-neutral doesn't mean it doesn't have a market, it can target a specific age group, area of interest, etc. So there is no reason that it won't be marketable. It's not like interests and age groups are exclusive to gender.

The main thing to consider is to not make the game too bland in an attempt to avoid offense. Don't get stupid with it. You don't have to dress female characters primly, but having a half naked female construction worker, with long nails and a fabulous hairdo as a character is going to be a bit ridiculous. I think it's all about context and avoiding stereotypes, like having the female character being weak, filing her nails all the time, only interested in her hair and being rescued by the men.

quote:Malus wrote: Don't add "girly" game content thats irrelevant because girls play games for the same reason guys do

I couldn't agree more. Just stop telling women things like: `You won't like to play this game because it's full of guns and violence' and instead say things like: `Hey this game is fun, want to try it?' Don't presume. A lot of women are probably turned off games because they are told they won't like them.

And Maitrek, why would I hate you? It's a forum discussion. I did say you had an interesting point, I just don't agree with it, and I sort of thought you were trying to prove a point because you said you were trying `to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.'

quote:Maitrek Wrote: This is a *characteristic* that separates gamers from non-gamers at the moment, and it's a big FLAW in our games.

I don't really get what you're trying to say is the big flaw in the games. That you can go on the internet for tips or use strategy guides? Or that you can figure them out for yourself? Or that sometimes you can't figure them out for yourself? You'll have to explain that one to me.

quote:Maitrek Wrote: A better question is do you feel you need any form of support network? If the answer is no then it adds weight to my thoughts that games aren't even close to being an element of social activity/structure.

Well I think that's a completely different question again. I don't feel like I need a support network. But that doesn't mean games aren't social. It just means I like to figure things out for myself. I do play games socially. I invite friends over to play games, or go and play games at other peoples houses. I just don't game with people I don't know or at Lans. I think it also depends on the game as to whether it's social or not, 1 player games are going to get real dull real quick in a group of people, fighting games can get real dull if you're just playing by yourself, and online games have a whole different sort of associated social activity.

As for the scantily clad thing, as I said before, I don't have a problem with it, a lot of those skimpy DOA2 costumes that Ayane and Kasumi wear I think are pretty cool, it can just be ridiculous if it gets over the top or out of context, and btw I really don't want male beefcake to compensate for it. Lets just stay with aesthetically pleasing in both cases.

LANs I don't find degrading or humiliating, I just find some of the attitudes there can be sexist which annoys and angers me, I'm not scared of it, it's just an environment I choose not to be around.

Submitted by redwyre on Wed, 18/06/03 - 1:10 PM Permalink

I'm a big believer that if we make really good games, then everyone will enjoy them. This might have been ont thing that Maitrek was trying to point out: games aren't good enough. Having been a gamer since the Apple ][, I am familiar with alot of different game interfaces, but a newcomer/someone who doesn't play much might not get how to play it easily if the developers have been lazy and rely too much on previous gameplaying skills.

If people at a LAN are sexist, then it's not worth being at. I certainly wouldn't stand for it.

Mostly useless fact: Females get into demo parties for cheap, if not for free.

Submitted by Maitrek on Sat, 21/06/03 - 1:44 AM Permalink

In brief - my point is that there are barriers to playing games, learning curves, things to overcome that we as gamers have forgotten that we had to do at one stage a long time ago. Now as designers we are making assumptions about what 'gamers' should be, and we are narrowing our market because of that.

The current "crop" of gamers have the characteristic that they tend to see a hurdle and just want to tackle it, regardless of the sanity possibly lost in the process (admit it, most of us are pretty insane, I lost mine ages ago). They overcome the difficulties in gaming so they can reap that reward.

Not everyone is that patient, the market is narrow because not everyone wants to just sit there and persist with what initially seems to be a "dumb-ass game". Not everyone sees the rewards (of playing games) that (game designers) are always assuming to be sufficient. For a new gamer, the reward isn't obvious, they haven't experienced it, they don't know what to expect, and they may not know what to look for in a game.

What I'm saying - is that good games transcend any glass ceilings (including that "female market").

The flaw I'm talking about is that not everyone wants to jump on the net to find the solution to a game, or spend hours figuring out the rules of the game, we have the tools and experience nowadays to make strong games that are easy to play for someone who hasn't seen a computer game before - make it easy for someone who would usually collaborate/communicate as part of their learning process to learn a game solitarily.

Example, what are the rules of a movie? Sit down - try to hold in any waste excretion urges - that's really it. That's why it's a better story-telling medium because anyone can do it (except the incontinent, but they can take a bag or something).

What's the reward for watching a movie? Usually related to empathic relation to a story or characters, or maybe something more simple like excitement, thrill etc etc. As for games? Similar, but it's harder to achieve, the rewards can be different, it can be about accomplishment, and over-coming hurdles - they can also be about story, narration, experience etc etc excitement. It's the barrier that newbs face to getting that reward which kills games at the moment.

There's always going to be a level of "too easy" (ie watching a movie) and "too hard" (imagine if max payne was your first PC gaming experience?) that might stuff up a game, but lack of tuition for newbies is really screwing us up, that and lack of intelligent design.

There's alot of factors that are always "thrown about" the place when people talk up about how good game designers they are (I do this myself and I'm just a programmer/wannabe designer), like reward structures, player motivation, NPC interaction, narrative device, literary structure, interface design and then it goes onto "level flow" etc etc, but I have my doubts about how seriously some designers take these things (I think level design has made very big strides lately compared to other aspects of game design).

I dunno where I'm going with this, just me with my verbal (???) diarrohea (I don't know how to spell that, but it looks like a good guess to me).

Also, this relates to the social activity -> My problem is how (the social activity) doesn't translate to *away* from the gaming arena. Games (socially) don't translate very well to the classroom, or the shopping 'mall' or whatever. Games can sort of bring people together, but not quite the way other 'social' activities can. I ask myself sometimes, are they (the gamers) together for the company of each other, or just because the game is more playable with others (ie the 'thrill' of 'fragging' someone else rather than just a NPC)? I don't really know the answer to that one, but I think it's an interesting question like alot of other question I have :)

Oh and lastly - as for the degrading/humiliating LAN comment - it doesn't mean that it will necesarily be just those two things, but I'm sure it could be. It could also be a whole range of other things - like intimidating, insulting, shithouse etc etc. Chicks are often made to feel like they aren't as 'female' if they play games, or they don't belong to the gaming community due to ridiculous amounts of male machismo unnecessarily flying around - stuff like that. I'm not going to pretend to be an ultra-sensitive guy that's in touch with my emotions and can eloquently describe every conceivable experience that being a 'female gamer' could create. So you'll just have to fill in the blanks, because I'm a guy, and I just don't completely understand women sometimes. Mi dispiace!

As you can see, I have nothing to say about the whole female market debate, so I'll shut up and go play guitar :)

Submitted by Leviron on Sun, 22/06/03 - 8:52 AM Permalink

Maybe the problem isn't always the about the content of the games, its where it is sold and how people find out about the game.

I went shopping today...nothing special about that I know. Its seems that every time I go with a female friend I make sure I ask her "hey you want to go in there?" when we walk near a store that only sells games and other game related stuff. The female friends will always say "are you crazy? I'm not going in there...too many guys in there" (Well the way they react is like "that's the porn section in the newsagency ...no way") and then they put that "I'm disgusted" or "I'm intimidated" look on.

I know not all girls act that way but seriously its happens too often.

Its kind of like sole guys in the women's underwear department...the women around stare at you...and they think you're some kind of sick pervert since you're not with a woman and you're just trying to pick out a piece of under garment for a present or something.

Well I'm just trying to say a lot of girl don't see the product because of fears or just certain values....and they are missing out on some quality entertainment *cough*.

Submitted by Malus on Sun, 22/06/03 - 11:33 AM Permalink

Really, women think wer are pervs when we are in the underwear section?
Maybe I should take my girlfriend next time instead of just hanging out by myself....its just so soft and lacy in there and i feel pretty. [:P]

Maitrek wrote:

quote:"Oh and lastly - as for the degrading/humiliating LAN comment - it doesn't mean that it will necesarily be just those two things, but I'm sure it could be."

I never said they were the sole 2 reasons, just obvious ones.

Hey maitrek, ever thought of writing a novel? you'd have War and Peace writen in one sitting the way you post hehe.

Submitted by Maitrek on Mon, 23/06/03 - 11:25 PM Permalink

Yeah I think I need to find a way to write shorter posts.

Submitted by Leviron on Wed, 25/06/03 - 1:49 AM Permalink

Well they might think you're some guy with a fetish for underwear or something...
That's why most guys tend to just stand there looking at the horror at some distance.

Submitted by rezn0r on Wed, 25/06/03 - 6:52 AM Permalink

What kind of sicko would like womens lingere?

Scott.

Submitted by GooberMan on Wed, 25/06/03 - 7:06 PM Permalink

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK..." :P

Posted by Jacana on
Forum

Here is an interesting little article:
http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/editorials/females.shtm

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002


Submitted by Leviron on Thu, 05/06/03 - 7:28 AM Permalink

Today in the afternoon or something channel 10 did some kind of news report on this topic...it was very funny. The interviewed a producer and a gamer.

Submitted by Echo on Sat, 14/06/03 - 1:36 PM Permalink

This flame war is one of the inherent problems with a discusion of this type of topic. People get too upset over things like sexism and sterotyping that the actual issue is never addressed.

When people start complaining about 'grouping' nasty things happen, soon enough we will not be alowed to use the terms 'gamer' and 'non-gamer' without someone causing a rucus!

Perhaps the topic should have been "What currently-non-gamers who are not primarily driven by violence and/or sex in games gamers want", this would have applied to both males and females and would have probally allowed the issue to actually be discussed. However, the topic was directed to females specifically I believe because:

  • 1. IN GENERAL- most games are already written for males, by males (and usually about males); there is less reason for discussion
  • 2. IN GENERAL- males and females are atracted to different types of entertainment, thus the issue as to what is desired in games must be discussed seperatly (although some items will be the same) much in the way one would discuss a game for a child and for an adult seperatley
  • 3. It is rather well known what males want in games (see point 1.), however it is less addressed what females want

Saying that females (in general) want to play different sorts of games is not sexist in any way, saying that females cannot or should not play games is, as is saying that females should play or should not play a certain type of game.

I would like to know if anyone has an opinion on what a female, currently-non-gamer would like to see in a game:
Guys reach into your more sensative (not to say that a female MUST be like this, just that -in general- this is the type that is currently lacking games and is a wide market to expand the industry to) sides.
Girls please try not to be offended by anything said, we poor males are still trying to learn and understand what offends and what doesnt, and this varies greatly between peer-groups; instead try to tell us what is desired in games for you.

Please remember; the topic was posted to discover what females want in games; this is helping to allow equality in one of the majorly lacking industrys (another one being sports) and therefore is actualy against sexual discrimination.

Submitted by davidcoen on Sun, 15/06/03 - 9:04 AM Permalink

you mean female gamer want more than guys with cute butts running around?

Submitted by Leviron on Sun, 15/06/03 - 7:17 PM Permalink

The non-gamers probably want to see more female and male characters with a better fashion sense (not contemporary but it has to look good). Characters could wear stuff that is more practical. Something that just covers the nipple and genital area is not practical for battle even in a fantasy world.

Some girls won't pick up that bikini beach ball game because of the tags that come with it. The tag that says "you're lesbian or bisexual when you play this game".

Girls usually don't go into a shop if there's only a bunch of male gamers looking at the hot looking chicks on the cover of the latest videogame release. It is intimidating and they just walk past and lose interest and will associate that scene with "those games are just for perverted young guys and it?s not cool to play them". (Things like this happens in shopping centres, you just stand outside the shop and watch what happens...maybe you'd like to do it for marketing research)

Its just sad that most of the successful game titles that make it into Europe and Australia are the ones that get classed as "perverted".

As a female, I don't want to see more "sex sells" or more idiots running around with tight pants or pants half way down their butt with their boxers showing. People, that boxers and with pants half way down look is gross.

Submitted by redwyre on Mon, 16/06/03 - 5:22 AM Permalink

I agree, if the "game fashion" is not practical, it can ruin - or at least damage - the game world.

Here's some sad, there is another Tomb Raider game coming out: http://www.tombraider.com/
And they are still heavily pimping Lara.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Mon, 16/06/03 - 3:57 PM Permalink

I've just read this whole thread and I really think this topic needs to be shoved down a deep dark hole and never resurrected. For sanity's sake can someone close this abysmal thread? What is the point of asking What do female gamers want? When A. - You won't listen to what any of the female gamers who are on the list want because they are already gamers and don't count. (Which is ridiculous because did you ever consider that at some point these female gamers were female non-gamers) and B. - There are no female non-gamers on the list so you can't ask them. You can't just sit there and think `gee, what do female gamers want?' and then make up an answer. If you really want to know go and do some research. Survey some female non-gamers and see what they say (and hope they don't eat you alive when you call them `chicks' or mention any of the other sexist guff that this conversation is riddled with). And if you survive that why not go and survey some male non-gamers and see if the responses are any different.

Submitted by souri on Mon, 16/06/03 - 9:17 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by Leviron

The non-gamers probably want to see more female and male characters with a better fashion sense (not contemporary but it has to look good). Characters could wear stuff that is more practical. Something that just covers the nipple and genital area is not practical for battle even in a fantasy world.

Just an observation - Sure, it doesn't make any real practical sense, but scantily clad females with minimal armour protection + lots of skin have been part of the fantasy world (Movies, board games etc) long before computer games were popular. And I do agree that some of the fashion sense in games are shocking. I did have a picture that illustrates your point EXACTLY, but I seem to have misplaced it. It was from a recent FPS.. I remember a screenshot that had two female comabatants with you in a large room (there were some discarded clothing dummies in the back). One of the females was a blonde with freckles, and was wearing a tight shiny spandex shirt, and a tight black miniskirt. I kid you not! There are such more ways to make a female more appealing than going for the real crass, cheap look. Definately a lack of imagination on the developers part. If anyone knows the game or that picture in particular I'm talking about, please post it here.

quote:Originally posted by bunnitos
I've just read this whole thread and I really think this topic needs to be shoved down a deep dark hole and never resurrected. For sanity's sake can someone close this abysmal thread? What is the point of asking What do female gamers want? When A. - You won't listen to what any of the female gamers who are on the list want because they are already gamers and don't count. (Which is ridiculous because did you ever consider that at some point these female gamers were female non-gamers) and B. - There are no female non-gamers on the list so you can't ask them. You can't just sit there and think `gee, what do female gamers want?' and then make up an answer.

I think there have been some really good arguments and suggestions on what females want from games - there's nothing wrong with speculating on the situation. Granted, it's not going to be as informative as a proper survey, but I've found most of the discussion here fairly intelligent and constructive.

Submitted by souri on Mon, 16/06/03 - 10:12 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by Leviron

Some girls won't pick up that bikini beach ball game because of the tags that come with it. The tag that says "you're lesbian or bisexual when you play this game".

Dead Or Alive Volleyball, or Outlaw Volleyball (or Redneck trailer-park trash Volleyball as I would call it!) are pretty much targetted at the male market. If they were catered for the female market, I'm sure they would be remarkably different games.

Submitted by Maitrek on Mon, 16/06/03 - 10:26 PM Permalink

Alrighty then - I'll attempt to utilise the female gamers in this forum to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.
In fact, anyone can answer this....
Who did you turn to when you needed conversation about playing some games, or some advice, or just to play multiplayer with? Were they predominantly male or female...

Submitted by Blitz on Tue, 17/06/03 - 9:31 AM Permalink

Hmmm, just an interesting question souri, if Dead or Alive beach volleyball were to be targeted more at "female gamers", how do you think the game would change? The only change that i would foresee would be adding a few male characters for the female eyecandy. As for the gameplay, the game seems more directed at the ..."stereotypical" female market, with focus on emotions, relationships, etc. than the "sterotypical" male market of action/violence.
CYer, Blitz

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:31 AM Permalink

Maitrek Wrote

quote: Alrighty then - I'll attempt to utilise the female gamers in this forum to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.
In fact, anyone can answer this....
Who did you turn to when you needed conversation about playing some games, or some advice, or just to play multiplayer with? Were they predominantly male or female...

I presume that you're trying to prove that female gamers do not have a support network of other female gamers. If that is what you're trying to prove, I'm not sure that it's true, but it's an interesting, if somewhat cyclic point. The problem is if there aren't that many female gamers overall of course there aren't going to be that many female gamers to turn to for advice or gameplay. If this is the reason that female non-gamers don't become female gamers it's not going to get any better is it? At some point there were only a few male gamers as well, but surprisingly now there are more. So you'd think by now there'd be more female gamers too. Why aren't there?

Well perhaps it has something to do with the way that they are alienated by the gaming community. Perhaps they're tired of people presuming that they want something different. I don't know, I haven't asked them. I can ask my own opinion or that of my female friends but that's not going to count for all female gamers and non-gamers, it's just going to be the opinion of a few gamers and non-gamers who happen to be female. And they're probably going to have different opinions.

I do know that I personally won't go to a LAN because when I have been there the attitudes of some of the male gamers have been abysmally sexist to say the least. Sexism in gaming seems to be pretty embedded and if not encouraged it certainly doesn't seem to be actually discouraged. I play games with both my female and male friends but I don't generally discuss or play games with the gaming community at large because it's hard to get through the crap. (Case in point, this conversation which is making me seriously consider whether getting involved was worthwhile.)

I don't usually ask for advice on games because I like to figure things out for myself and if I can't there's always strategy guides and the internet. If I do discuss games with my friends it depends more on whether they've played the game or not than on whether they are female or male. So I don't feel like I'm lacking a female support network, nor do I feel like I need a specifically female support network.

The only conclusions that I can draw from my own experience are, perhaps there are more female gamers out there than you think there are, they just don't want to interact with the mainstream gaming community, or if there aren't that many female gamers out there perhaps the problem is that such a big issue is made out of the fact that they are female and want to play games that it's too much hassle to be bothered.

Souri Wrote

quote: I think there have been some really good arguments and suggestions on what females want from games - there's nothing wrong with speculating on the situation. Granted, it's not going to be as informative as a proper survey, but I've found most of the discussion here fairly intelligent and constructive.

Well, apparently this discussion is going to continue, though I'd have to say I see very little point when the opinions presented are, on the most part, uninformed and offensive to the very market that is being targeted. How can you address the needs of female gamers when you are insulting them?

I don't presume to express the opinion of all female gamers but without any evidence how can you say that they want something different to what male gamers want? You may as well say all female gamers want more of the colour orange in their games, there isn't that much of the colour orange in games, and there aren't many female gamers and so obviously female gamers want more of the colour orange in their games.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:52 AM Permalink

Btw, I personally don't really have a problem with scantily clad women in games. I think it can get ridiculous when taken to extremes but it only actually becomes really annoying to me when there's no content other than, `here's some scantily clad women'. I'm not going to try and say people shouldn't play that sort of game it just isn't really my thing. I do like DOA2 and I have no problem with the costumes in that, it's one of my favourite fighting games. As far as the fashion thing goes, that's really all just personal taste, I find hot pink really gross, and I've got to agree on the Brittney Spears `look at my butt' style being a real loser, but there are plenty of girls out there who actually wear that stuff and somebody also has to like the boxer shorts sticking out above baggy pants thing or why the hell are all those guys doing it? Everyone has different tastes.

Submitted by Jacana on Tue, 17/06/03 - 9:17 PM Permalink

Just to add more fodder to the discussion - I found this article:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1889.asp

Some of the interesting parts:
Females, on the other hand, want to know exactly how a game works before they play. They're the people reading the manual.

Women control 80% of every dollar spent. Women will willingly spend $100 on shoes if they feel like it's worth the money. Right now, women in general don't feel like games are worth the money. But if there's a game that women like, they are very loyal to the brand and will give referrals to everybody. The shelf life for games that females play is much longer.

Submitted by Daemin on Tue, 17/06/03 - 10:47 PM Permalink

quote:women in general don't feel like games are worth the money

Some games are definetly not worth spending $80 over for a 10 hour gaming experience, since for that money you could go see 8 movies, which is about 16 hours of entertainment. Most FPS games now limit themselves to about 10 hours of gameplay or so, which I think is dissapointing.

quote:I personally won't go to a LAN because when I have been there the attitudes of some of the male gamers have been abysmally sexist to say the least. Sexism in gaming seems to be pretty embedded and if not encouraged it certainly doesn't seem to be actually discouraged

I guess it stems from the fact that very few females go to LAN's, which makes it a pretty male-only domain, and in turn it keeps females away, a catch 22 of sorts.

Submitted by Malus on Tue, 17/06/03 - 11:15 PM Permalink

Echo wrote

quote:"People get too upset over things like sexism and sterotyping that the actual issue is never addressed."

Too upset? I think people getting upset over any form of discrimination is a good thing, never 'too' upset in my opinion, maybe the fact these type of threads fall into flame wars is because people post derogatory comments that offend people.

It could have been a good hypothetical discussion but when people start reverting to Victorian (timeline not state)idealoligies about what defines a womens role, abilities, needs etc it starts offending, therefore flames appear.

Women and men may be socially different but I don't feel the industry should be asking a diffenrent question.
Instead of, "what we can do to 'bring' females into games?"
I think the industry should concentrate on "what we can do to stop making them not feel welcome?"

Bunnitos brang up a good point about LAN's, one could say LAN's are a close correlation to a large portion of the games industry, they generally are full of loud, sexist, racist, homopohobic banter and remarks.
Hey I too get caught up in the atmosphere so I'm not saying Im a perfect guy, but has anyone ever stopped to think how threatened and uncomfortable females might feel.

Now if this is the what the average gamer is like, and I think it might be, can we see that these sorts of attitudes and the attitude of developers to pander to them are maybe contributing to stopping those females who might be intersted from getting into gaming?

On a side note, when I was studying at qantm we had a couple of girls studying with us and during one LAN we were having (I know we should have been working) this one guy screams out "I'm going to f*#king rape you b@#ch!" to a male counterpart who had just killed him.
Now one girl took offense and asked him nicely to have some respect and he got all agressive and threatened her, I had to tell him to back off.
Now I know this is probably very uncommon but that may be the kind of thing that is seen and may cause females to be not that into our community, hell it made me livid and I'm a guy.

Last thing I promise. [:P]
Don't add "girly" game content thats irrevant because girls play games for the same reason guys do, just tone down the sexism and hire more females to build games. Hell we all want more of the opposite sex around us right.

[:D]

Submitted by Maitrek on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:34 AM Permalink

Bunnitos - you may hate me for this - but I think you help substantiate a few of my thoughts lying around the place.

I'm not sure the gender issue is cyclic myself - I didn't ask the question to prove myself right, I asked it to get a better understanding. I have a feeling there is an element of it, but again, I don't think it's the actual important issue. That's something that game designers can't change at all.

Contrary to popular opinion on this board, I ask alot of questions out of curiosity *and* a desire to better understand the question and the answer. I don't ask things expecting some kind of answer that I already have in my head, if I knew the answer I wouldn't ask :)

quote:I don't usually ask for advice on games because I like to figure things out for myself and if I can't there's always strategy guides and the internet

This is exactly what I'm talking about - in a round-a-bout way. This is a *characteristic* that separates gamers from non-gamers at the moment, and it's a big FLAW in our games. I can't go on about it enough - people always seem to gloss over it though -> like it's some shit attempt to divert this discussion from the pit of stereotyping that it always digs itself into (which it is - good observations ppl [^] )

quote:So I don't feel like I'm lacking a female support network, nor do I feel like I need a specifically female support network

A better question is do you feel you need any form of support network? If the answer is no then it adds weight to my thoughts that games aren't even close to being an element of social activity/structure. Think about going to the movies, going to the pub, playing sports - those can really form a cornerstone of social activity/opinion/discussion. Whereas games? Not even close. It's an intersting issue to debate, but no one here would give a shit as they are content with games as they are, not as what they could be.

quote:Well, apparently this discussion is going to continue, though I'd have to say I see very little point when the opinions presented are, on the most part, uninformed and offensive to the very market that is being targeted. How can you address the needs of female gamers when you are insulting them?

As a note if any female on this board is in anyway personally insulted/offended by something I say - tell me - I'd much rather know so I can be more careful next time. I've never claimed to be perfect :)

As for the scantily clad women problem? I'm not sure where that comes from, alot of it is marketing BS enforced on artists, some of it is just artists using sexual imagery for some kind of character definition, some of it is pure artist wank. I don't think it detracts from a good game, but I don't think it makes a crap game good. Tomb Raider was a damn good game, unfortunately it's success sent the wrong message to marketing - and there are other examples as well. I doubt it will piss off females in general or decrease their enjoyment of a game, (they are no where near as homophobic as males), but it's not going to attract them to the games - that's for sure.

And lastly - I've never really been to many LANs, and the lans that I have attended are always "sausage fests", but I can only imagine the result could end up being somewhat degrading/humiliating for any female in attendence - obviously depending on the group of gamers.
Unfortunately it seems that this world's inhabitants still haven't *entirely* moved on from the "boys will be boys, girls will be girls" concept.

Submitted by Brain on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:36 AM Permalink

quote:As a female, I don't want to see more "sex sells" or more idiots running around with tight pants or pants half way down their butt with their boxers showing. People, that boxers and with pants half way down look is gross.

"That's one of the most basic rules that we all know, that the underwear goes INSIDE THE PANTS! That's why it's called UNDER-FUCKIN'-WEAR!" - Dennis Leary

Needless to say, I totally agree @:-)

Submitted by Jacana on Wed, 18/06/03 - 12:47 AM Permalink

Ok - to change the idea a bit here....
Instead of trying to devlop a game to pull in the female market what about games that are "gender neutral" in design. Maybe looking at designing a game to -not- target a certain group is a better idea.

There are heaps of PS2 and Nintendo games that seem to not focus on gender what so ever - but just a damn good game. I know if I could afford it I would buy a few consoles and take a look at some great looking games that I am missing out on as a pc user.

Submitted by Maitrek on Wed, 18/06/03 - 5:42 AM Permalink

That's a fair enough proposition for a hobby developer, but from what I can tell, if you can't name a 'market' to the big publishing executives, and can convince them why this game is going to be worth selling etc, then you might as well hit the streets.

I dunno - any game development producers/designers out there that have more info on this side of things?

As a purely hobby game "developer", the games I work for can be whatever I want them to be - but I know that the reality of games development for profit is different.

Submitted by Carnegie Mellon on Wed, 18/06/03 - 8:24 AM Permalink

quote:Jacana Wrote: Instead of trying to devlop a game to pull in the female market what about games that are "gender neutral" in design.

I think that Jacana is right on the money here, and just because it's gender-neutral doesn't mean it doesn't have a market, it can target a specific age group, area of interest, etc. So there is no reason that it won't be marketable. It's not like interests and age groups are exclusive to gender.

The main thing to consider is to not make the game too bland in an attempt to avoid offense. Don't get stupid with it. You don't have to dress female characters primly, but having a half naked female construction worker, with long nails and a fabulous hairdo as a character is going to be a bit ridiculous. I think it's all about context and avoiding stereotypes, like having the female character being weak, filing her nails all the time, only interested in her hair and being rescued by the men.

quote:Malus wrote: Don't add "girly" game content thats irrelevant because girls play games for the same reason guys do

I couldn't agree more. Just stop telling women things like: `You won't like to play this game because it's full of guns and violence' and instead say things like: `Hey this game is fun, want to try it?' Don't presume. A lot of women are probably turned off games because they are told they won't like them.

And Maitrek, why would I hate you? It's a forum discussion. I did say you had an interesting point, I just don't agree with it, and I sort of thought you were trying to prove a point because you said you were trying `to maybe prove or disprove a (possibly incorrect) point I made earlier.'

quote:Maitrek Wrote: This is a *characteristic* that separates gamers from non-gamers at the moment, and it's a big FLAW in our games.

I don't really get what you're trying to say is the big flaw in the games. That you can go on the internet for tips or use strategy guides? Or that you can figure them out for yourself? Or that sometimes you can't figure them out for yourself? You'll have to explain that one to me.

quote:Maitrek Wrote: A better question is do you feel you need any form of support network? If the answer is no then it adds weight to my thoughts that games aren't even close to being an element of social activity/structure.

Well I think that's a completely different question again. I don't feel like I need a support network. But that doesn't mean games aren't social. It just means I like to figure things out for myself. I do play games socially. I invite friends over to play games, or go and play games at other peoples houses. I just don't game with people I don't know or at Lans. I think it also depends on the game as to whether it's social or not, 1 player games are going to get real dull real quick in a group of people, fighting games can get real dull if you're just playing by yourself, and online games have a whole different sort of associated social activity.

As for the scantily clad thing, as I said before, I don't have a problem with it, a lot of those skimpy DOA2 costumes that Ayane and Kasumi wear I think are pretty cool, it can just be ridiculous if it gets over the top or out of context, and btw I really don't want male beefcake to compensate for it. Lets just stay with aesthetically pleasing in both cases.

LANs I don't find degrading or humiliating, I just find some of the attitudes there can be sexist which annoys and angers me, I'm not scared of it, it's just an environment I choose not to be around.

Submitted by redwyre on Wed, 18/06/03 - 1:10 PM Permalink

I'm a big believer that if we make really good games, then everyone will enjoy them. This might have been ont thing that Maitrek was trying to point out: games aren't good enough. Having been a gamer since the Apple ][, I am familiar with alot of different game interfaces, but a newcomer/someone who doesn't play much might not get how to play it easily if the developers have been lazy and rely too much on previous gameplaying skills.

If people at a LAN are sexist, then it's not worth being at. I certainly wouldn't stand for it.

Mostly useless fact: Females get into demo parties for cheap, if not for free.

Submitted by Maitrek on Sat, 21/06/03 - 1:44 AM Permalink

In brief - my point is that there are barriers to playing games, learning curves, things to overcome that we as gamers have forgotten that we had to do at one stage a long time ago. Now as designers we are making assumptions about what 'gamers' should be, and we are narrowing our market because of that.

The current "crop" of gamers have the characteristic that they tend to see a hurdle and just want to tackle it, regardless of the sanity possibly lost in the process (admit it, most of us are pretty insane, I lost mine ages ago). They overcome the difficulties in gaming so they can reap that reward.

Not everyone is that patient, the market is narrow because not everyone wants to just sit there and persist with what initially seems to be a "dumb-ass game". Not everyone sees the rewards (of playing games) that (game designers) are always assuming to be sufficient. For a new gamer, the reward isn't obvious, they haven't experienced it, they don't know what to expect, and they may not know what to look for in a game.

What I'm saying - is that good games transcend any glass ceilings (including that "female market").

The flaw I'm talking about is that not everyone wants to jump on the net to find the solution to a game, or spend hours figuring out the rules of the game, we have the tools and experience nowadays to make strong games that are easy to play for someone who hasn't seen a computer game before - make it easy for someone who would usually collaborate/communicate as part of their learning process to learn a game solitarily.

Example, what are the rules of a movie? Sit down - try to hold in any waste excretion urges - that's really it. That's why it's a better story-telling medium because anyone can do it (except the incontinent, but they can take a bag or something).

What's the reward for watching a movie? Usually related to empathic relation to a story or characters, or maybe something more simple like excitement, thrill etc etc. As for games? Similar, but it's harder to achieve, the rewards can be different, it can be about accomplishment, and over-coming hurdles - they can also be about story, narration, experience etc etc excitement. It's the barrier that newbs face to getting that reward which kills games at the moment.

There's always going to be a level of "too easy" (ie watching a movie) and "too hard" (imagine if max payne was your first PC gaming experience?) that might stuff up a game, but lack of tuition for newbies is really screwing us up, that and lack of intelligent design.

There's alot of factors that are always "thrown about" the place when people talk up about how good game designers they are (I do this myself and I'm just a programmer/wannabe designer), like reward structures, player motivation, NPC interaction, narrative device, literary structure, interface design and then it goes onto "level flow" etc etc, but I have my doubts about how seriously some designers take these things (I think level design has made very big strides lately compared to other aspects of game design).

I dunno where I'm going with this, just me with my verbal (???) diarrohea (I don't know how to spell that, but it looks like a good guess to me).

Also, this relates to the social activity -> My problem is how (the social activity) doesn't translate to *away* from the gaming arena. Games (socially) don't translate very well to the classroom, or the shopping 'mall' or whatever. Games can sort of bring people together, but not quite the way other 'social' activities can. I ask myself sometimes, are they (the gamers) together for the company of each other, or just because the game is more playable with others (ie the 'thrill' of 'fragging' someone else rather than just a NPC)? I don't really know the answer to that one, but I think it's an interesting question like alot of other question I have :)

Oh and lastly - as for the degrading/humiliating LAN comment - it doesn't mean that it will necesarily be just those two things, but I'm sure it could be. It could also be a whole range of other things - like intimidating, insulting, shithouse etc etc. Chicks are often made to feel like they aren't as 'female' if they play games, or they don't belong to the gaming community due to ridiculous amounts of male machismo unnecessarily flying around - stuff like that. I'm not going to pretend to be an ultra-sensitive guy that's in touch with my emotions and can eloquently describe every conceivable experience that being a 'female gamer' could create. So you'll just have to fill in the blanks, because I'm a guy, and I just don't completely understand women sometimes. Mi dispiace!

As you can see, I have nothing to say about the whole female market debate, so I'll shut up and go play guitar :)

Submitted by Leviron on Sun, 22/06/03 - 8:52 AM Permalink

Maybe the problem isn't always the about the content of the games, its where it is sold and how people find out about the game.

I went shopping today...nothing special about that I know. Its seems that every time I go with a female friend I make sure I ask her "hey you want to go in there?" when we walk near a store that only sells games and other game related stuff. The female friends will always say "are you crazy? I'm not going in there...too many guys in there" (Well the way they react is like "that's the porn section in the newsagency ...no way") and then they put that "I'm disgusted" or "I'm intimidated" look on.

I know not all girls act that way but seriously its happens too often.

Its kind of like sole guys in the women's underwear department...the women around stare at you...and they think you're some kind of sick pervert since you're not with a woman and you're just trying to pick out a piece of under garment for a present or something.

Well I'm just trying to say a lot of girl don't see the product because of fears or just certain values....and they are missing out on some quality entertainment *cough*.

Submitted by Malus on Sun, 22/06/03 - 11:33 AM Permalink

Really, women think wer are pervs when we are in the underwear section?
Maybe I should take my girlfriend next time instead of just hanging out by myself....its just so soft and lacy in there and i feel pretty. [:P]

Maitrek wrote:

quote:"Oh and lastly - as for the degrading/humiliating LAN comment - it doesn't mean that it will necesarily be just those two things, but I'm sure it could be."

I never said they were the sole 2 reasons, just obvious ones.

Hey maitrek, ever thought of writing a novel? you'd have War and Peace writen in one sitting the way you post hehe.

Submitted by Maitrek on Mon, 23/06/03 - 11:25 PM Permalink

Yeah I think I need to find a way to write shorter posts.

Submitted by Leviron on Wed, 25/06/03 - 1:49 AM Permalink

Well they might think you're some guy with a fetish for underwear or something...
That's why most guys tend to just stand there looking at the horror at some distance.

Submitted by rezn0r on Wed, 25/06/03 - 6:52 AM Permalink

What kind of sicko would like womens lingere?

Scott.

Submitted by GooberMan on Wed, 25/06/03 - 7:06 PM Permalink

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK..." :P