Hey all,
I've finished Year 12 and the HSC this year so now as a result I'm looking into what to do next.
I sought of have 2 available options:
1. Spend 3-4 hours a day travelling from Narwee to Hornsby TAFE for 2 years, and come out with a Diploma in Software Development (Games) then go to UTS for another 2 years and get a Bachelor of Science (Games)
2. Go to UTS or Sydney Uni and do a 'generic' computers course
The travelling is the big issue for the TAFE option BUT it'll allow me to do what I love rather than wasting 4 years doing a course I'll probably care very little about. Sure I'll probably go well and get high marks but I won't enjoy it. Business computing and programming just doesn't interest me, that's why I want to get into game development.
I have a good enough UAI to be able to do whatever UTS course I could want, including Computer Engineering or Software Engineering so an option like that is tempting, especially considering the transport issue is solved easily (There's trains straight from where I live to right outside UTS while Hornsby is a bus and a train, or 2 trains)
I guess the 3 big questions are:
1. What would employees prefer? A generic computers Bachelor or a games one?
2. Would Uni drive me nuts with their seemingly business and theoretical courses? Or is it not as bad as what I think? TAFE looks fun because it's hands on, which I have found is the best way to learn.
3. Could I skip both options entirely and go straight into a company? I already experiment with advanced techniques such as Neural Networks and Genetic Algorithms (My current AI project uses these to facilitate weapon choice, movement, and decision making), and I've worked on numerous projects ranging from mods up to entire games. The fact that I do know a reasonable amount already could make Uni or TAFE unnecessary BUT going to them I'd get 'the papers', which could be useful. The papers could also be good because unfortunately I have very little 'real' work experience.
I'm VERY passionate about my work - I've spent LOTS of time coding working on new AI techniques, games and other projects just because I like doing it. My dream is to allow developers to give people who play offline a gameplay experience comparable to what you'd experience online through the use of powerful AI technology. I'm also interested in coding new, fun and innovative games.
So... Where to next? Is there a company out there that needs some crazy AI coded up? Or should I go to TAFE or Uni and continue my education?
Good point spud' I'm pretty sure Lorien's talking about "as a programmer..." rather than "in all cases..."
While I can't comment on uni fine arts or graphic design etc. degrees (I suspect they teach you amazing things) I'd suspect that modellers and artists who want to work commercially would probably benefitfrom TAFE more than uni.
Firstly I wasn't saying that going to TAFE is a waste of time, and I wasn't picking on Hornsby TAFE at all. I was talking about Rohan's individual case, and not even about programmers in general.
There's a lot to read between the lines in this thread btw, though not that much in my posts this time [:)]
There were 5 "programmers", but 4 programmers. Ask Bullant studios or Seb Perri (I know you and spudbog know him Dragoon) if you don't get it still.
quote:Originally posted by CynicalFan
He quite plainly stated in his last post that he wasn't pissed off.
I'm not pissed-off. But spudbog and dragoon haven't exactly been being honest with everyone here as far as I know.
And spudbog was trying to make me pissed-off with that post I think Cynical.
You're current AIE Canberra staff aren't you spudbog?
Edit: Or you have been in the past? Or will start again when semester starts?
not aie staff anymore, but was AIE staff, I have been honest, I did study at CIT, I do belive that TAFE and CIT is a better option then uni.
This has nothing to do with AIE, its my own opion, and I do belive that you want some one to make you pissed-off with a post saying
You obviously don't know what I'm like when I'm pissed-off.
to finish off, TAFE and CIT is a good place to learn, I choose it over UNI, thats all I have been saying, the CIT course that I did was run by AIE, but it was still a CIT course and it was cheaper then UNI.
Hell III evern do one better, I work for MF now.......
quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
From my point of view I see University and Vocational training as filling two different roles. University teaches a lot of raw theory with a bit of practicality, where Vocational training is about teaching you the basics of what you need to do for a job and the roles you will be filling, but only a bit of theory. The disparity is in that some jobs really don't have a lot of theory or technical knowledge required for them and others do.
A University games course will teach a lot of theory, but leaves out a lot of industry knowledge about the jobs and industry function meaning a University graduate should familiarise themselves with the culture and practical aspects of the industry in their spare time. On the flip side a Vocational course will tell you most of that, but is light on the theory, so a Vocational student should be broadening their technical skills and experience outside of class time.
A whole lot of the theory taught at University is not necessary for most research / jobs, but it will be relevant to some. Maybe courses targetted specifically to games narrow down and remove a lot of the useless theory? (I don't know).
In either case it is the student themselves that determines how good they end up. Neither a University course or a Vocational course is going to make a student better than their innate talent - but a disciplined student would reach their potential even if they didn't attend an educational course (but its a lot easier if they do). Both provide the student with learning resources and both leave a lot to the student to learn in their spare time.
quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
If you can, choose the learning style that appeals to you the most. If your goal is more research than to be working in the industry then Uni is a must.
In either case if you want to succeed you must put in a lot of effort outside class time. After all if you know more that your classmates, you'll get picked for a job over them ;-)
quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
What do you mean by this Lorien? I just reread the thread and still can't figure it out. Were there only 4 programmers?
These are my posts in this thread. Which are you referring to as being dishonest?
In post 35 under the "The New Games Industry Conference in 2006 should be held in..." poll you said:
quote:Originally posted by Lorien
On the wishlist subject which institution's have had their students as AGDC volunteers? It would be nice to have these things spread around evenly.
and in post 37 you said:
quote:Originally posted by Lorien
Likewise I think everyone should have a chance at being a volunteer- it's not like they've been advertising for volunteers as was done with IE2005.
in response in post 44:
quote:Originally posted by Anonymous Coward
No 35 - Lorien posted:
On the wishlist subject which institution's have had their students as AGDC volunteers? It would be nice to have these things spread around evenly.
I considered volunteering myself when I saw the following - from the AGDC email newsletter that I received 23 August 2005:
Call for Volunteers:
Volunteers are needed for the AGDC 2005 in Melbourne in December. If you would like to submit an expression of interest, please email us with your CV. Deadline 5, September 2005.
to which you said in post 45:
quote:Originally posted by Lorien
Cool, nice change. Sumea would have been a better place to advertise if people were actually to see it though.
How it worked previously was they just made an announcement in class that if you wanted to be an AGDC volunteer you had to go see Pon and tell her.
Erm, is it not dishonest to make those claims before you familiarise yourself with changes in recent years to the AGDC?
You tell people you teach at La Trobe, a University, yet you are casting doubt on vocational training here. Do I see a conflict of interest there?
I have been honest with people, I have said what I think the benefits of each are. It is up to the student to decide which type of environment would suit them best. Graduates from the AIE have come from college, through their course and gone straight into Junior positions in the games industry (from both the art and programming side). Ones with University degrees have also gone through the AIE, but not gotten into the games industry (and not from lack of trying).
In reality some of the companies in the games industry do require, or place some importance to a Uni degree (at least on the programming side), but some also don't care. They look at the skill of the applicants (formal education or not) by test, demo reel (or program) and source code.
This is getting rather off topic, and I don't want to turn a thread where someone who seems to be a whizz kid themselves has asked for advice into some kind of institutional fight, so I'll try to keep it short and sweet.
I think it's dishonest to go giving advice to kids straight out of high school without telling them you are or have been a staff member at an institution. I've said where I study and work, and have done so plenty of times on sumea. You guys have been avoiding it like crazy is how it seems to me (Dragoon is/was AIE Canberra staff too).
I'm one of your institution's (or former institution's) graduates remember. AFAIK neither of you are one of my institutions. Have either of you been to uni?
Putting an ad in the AGDC newsletter is hardly spreading it around evenly imho. That seems more like a half-arsed attempt to keep the volunteers being AIE students while letting themselves say "but we tried to spread things around!". My humble opinion of course, and I was honesty pleased to find an attempt had been made. It was a nice change.
I've said before I have nothing against most AIE teaching staff. I think they do they best they can.
And no spudbog it was not asking to have you try and piss me off. It was pointing out that if you take a terse and to the point post as meaning I am angry then you are mistaken.
Thanks for saying you work for MF. I don't envy you, but that's the sort of thing that should be said when in a thread started by a HS graduate asking for advice I think.
quote:Originally posted by lorien
I think it's dishonest to go giving advice to kids straight out of high school without telling them you are or have been a staff member at an institution. I've said where I study and work, and have done so plenty of times on sumea. You guys have been avoiding it like crazy is how it seems to me (Dragoon is/was AIE Canberra staff too).
I don't work for the AIE. The only relationship I have with them is through giving guest industry lectures to their programming students.
I went through University before the AIE and I worked for several years before attending the AIE. I did go straight into the games industry when I finished the course (as did all the programmers who completed the course that year). I did not say University was a bad thing. I said it emphasises different aspects of education. The difference in learning environment between the two is quite significant. That is what is important for a student choosing where to study.
If I was to say what particular training would give you the best chance to get employed, I would say do both. You cover all aspects of the education that way. Maybe Uni first, and then follow it with a year for a Diploma.
quote:Originally posted by lorien
Putting an ad in the AGDC newsletter is hardly spreading it around evenly imho. That seems more like a half-arsed attempt to keep the volunteers being AIE students while letting themselves say "but we tried to spread things around!". My humble opinion of course, and I was honesty pleased to find an attempt had been made. It was a nice change.
Really? as far as I am aware anyone can subscribe to the AGDC newsletter. I would have though the AGDC website & newsletter would be the first place anyone should look for information regarding it.
Edit: In the case of doing both, I would suggest a pure Computer Science degree with a heavy mathematics component (through to 2nd year Math) rather than a games specific degree. One or two 1st year Physics units wouldn't hurt as well.
You were an AIE tutor for at least a year too. I remember you well (though you weren't my teacher at all).
quote:
Really? as far as I am aware anyone can subscribe to the AGDC newsletter. I would have though the AGDC website & newsletter would be the first place anyone should look for information regarding it.
Well Casey or Pon or someone seemed very kindly to unsubscribe me from it quite a while ago (I don't remember doing it, but I could be wrong). For the sort of people who would generally like to be volunteers sumea is a far better place to advertise. That's why people advertise events and jobs here rather than (or as well as) on their own sites oddly enough.
If you want to argue this (and I don't, it's boring and the AGDC is dead) it's only fair to Rohan to put it in another thread imho.
Well, I got my Uni application results back [:)]
I got into that UTS couse:
Bachelor of Science in Information Technology, Diploma of Information Technology Professional Practice
Which is rather cool considering I think most people (parents, school) expected me to get a low UAI or flunk entirely - hence the reason why I applied for that EAS thingo... Now the time has come to make the final decision I guess. Things weigh heavily in favour of the Uni course though.
Thanks lorien [:)] I've enrolled now - I just hope i've made the right choice! I read the subject list and thought "W T F am i doing???" but no other Uni is any better nor are there any other courses IMHO for this soughta stuff (Atleast in Sydney [:P]) and those private places are too expensive. I read some of the notes too that my bro left laying around the house (He's moved out now but he's doing the same course) and it looked... supprisingly easy in some places - things I'd learnt in SDD or IPT at school. So maybe TAFE would be even worse! Not trying to be arrogant but I hate going over the same thing over and over again... I tend to have that happen alot cause I do read/study ahead. Time to learn Java and Eiffel I suppose [:P]
On a side note - I have a project now to keep me occupied that I'm quite excited about, i'm going to go nuts with it and put in all my best ideas and craziest code. Especially when it comes to AI.
Congratulations.
If it's anything like my experience at uni, the first semester or three might feel like you're king of the world (basic programming concepts etc), but you'll quickly hit the WTF factor. They need to teach the basics to everyone else, but listen well anyway - help your (new) mates (it'll come back to help you later). My only suggestion is to choose subjects based on what you think you'll enjoy, not based on what you think employers might want. Keep all the notes and textbooks you can, one day in the future you'll want them again.
its not a waste going to TAFE or CIT
Again Lorien and I will never see eye to eye on this.
for me it was cheaper to study at CIT then to go to uni, plus my classes and teachers new what to cover to get me employment in my feild, I am a 3D artist. I found CIT trained me up and get me in to a job faster, when working out what path to take. Just because it is UNI does not meant that the training is going to be better.