General Chat

Ok.... I am impressed, it was alot of fun.

Tried it when the artist posted it over at conceptart.org, but had a teensy problem - I couldn't interact with the clouds at all. Thought I was just being a retard and misread the controls, but nup... some obscure hardware conflict on my work rig :)

Visually, the quality is nothing spectacularly amazing, but it certainly does have a very nice aesthetic feel to it... that light, high saturation feel that parts of ico has, combined with the floaty fly around is quite an interesting experiance.

Ahh, I thought it was just me! I just kept flying through the clouds and wondered why nothing was happening. And then my computer shut down. (the fan on my gfx card has recently stopped working. I can't play games anymore because it overheats and shuts down [:(])

nothing happens until you find the *bright* white cloud and hold the left button while you're in it.

the other clouds merge with the bright one, but do nothing otherwise.

They "may" be onto something. Whilst I had no problems at home I brought it in to work to show the designer here, he played it fine for about 10 minutes and then all of a sudden could no longer drag any of his clouds anymore and had to restart the game.

Its possible a few bugs are left in it... It is after all a student project.

Sorry, that came across badly - I don't doubt there are still issues, but I haven't seen any yet. They have a forum for bug reports...

Still, it's way more fun that I thought it would be based on the initial description.

It perhaps especially struck a chord with me due to [url="http://www.raphkoster.com/?p=156"]this post by Ralph Koster about women in games[/url] "Once upon a time there was a world where half of the population couldn?t see the color blue.... ...And that?s why in that world there tend to be very few seascapes or pictures of puffy clouds."

I don't mind the idea of buying an import system, given that we're paying $100 more than the US for the same system. But I'm not sure I could be bothered with the hassel of importing all my games as well.

I heard that the 360 is not region independent though, i could be wrong though.

I read that somewhere too LimeWire, so if you get an American Console you'll only be able to play American games. Basically that'll mean you'll have to import the games too, at significant cost.

though probably still cheeper than paying Australian prices

I looked this up when a colleague from canada suggested importing one. The '360 *is* region locked.

Oh well, yet another reason for piracy to profit rather than legitimate developers. *sigh*

thus we have: [url]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3292[/url]

and i fully support the court's decision. the only use or region locks is to allow companies to charge different (i.e. higher) prices in different parts of the world. As i see it, if i buy a game, then they get their sale, and i should be able to play it - where i bought it should be irrelevant. Same goes for DVDs.

Wouldn't it be great if with this whole broadband live *thing* you could buy a "region pass" for your 360? Basically while you're on live you can play and/or buy/download import games?

Just imagine if you could download a game and burn it to disc - Steam style.

It's interesting to see that the PS3 won't be region coded. This probably is in Sony's favour for future court battles against mod chipping, now that the region coded equation has been taken out.

Not sure if it's worth the hassle with a region locked imported Xbox 360. There's already work on [url="http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/11/27/166248.shtml?tid=211&tid=106"]bypassing the XBox 360's security model[/url], and I'm guessing that it will happen eventually, but who knows how long you'll have to put up with importing games. Although considering how much we get screwed over with game prices here, it might possibly be cheaper importing games.

Online distribution is going to be interesting, and hopefully we'll be paying the *exact* conversion rate for US retail games (something like $70), and then minus the costs of distribution and packaging, so it'll even be cheaper than that. Well, here's hoping anyway. If iTunes is of any indication, we'll end up paying more than our American counterparts somehow. [;)]

a whole bunch of 360 dev kits were stolen a while back (I havn't got a link sorry), so expect it to be cracked and chipped soon enough.

If you were smart, you'd wait for the americans to work out all the teething problems and buy a nice stable box when it comes out here :)

I wonder if they're going to fix the power supply heating problems before they get here [?]

Would be pretty stupid of them to release something that overheats in one of the world's hottest countries...

Hi gamer23 im not sure if its to late but i am very interested in buying a xbox360 from you i live in australia

Those are excellant. I watched them all [:)] I haven't had to chance toplay MGS3, but it looks fantastic. Kojima should direct an action movie one day, darn it. Maybe once fans stop giving him [url="http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000893069042/"]death threats to make more MGS games[/url].

Loved them all. It's always healthy to be less serious and have a laugh at our own expense :D

Richard Stallman may have already been replaced by a vat-grown clone.

The Truth Is Out There you know. [:p]

quote:Originally posted by WiffleCube


Richard Stallman may have already been replaced by a vat-grown clone.

The Truth Is Out There you know. [:p]

[:)]

I think that's more likely to be Bill Gates. People at MIT are likely smart enough to notice RMS being replaced, though someone did give him an office in the William H. Gates (yes, that Bill Gates) building on the MIT campus a while back. Neither of them were very happy about it I gather [:)]

Forgot to mention that the quote is from Bruce Perens.

Yeah my last logitech controller broke after a month or so (it was a dual shock clone and the left thumb stick died, it is a known issue I found out) Replaced it with a nice thrustmaster.

As for the 360 controllers I think they are only getting an american release same time as the system (possibly a little earlier I think for the PC branded versions I heard talked about) so I would expect the same in australia, but certainly not localy available right now.

im not sure about that but i do know that you can find adapter cords for your xbox say that's a xbox controller plug in to usb, so you can use your existing one as a joystick like peripheral. These arent really sold retail though as far as i know but there allways seems to be some floating about ebay (ive seen ps2 ones aswell by the way), cheaper then buying a new controller alltogether.

quote:Originally posted by poppin fresh

Yeah my last logitech controller broke after a month or so (it was a dual shock clone and the left thumb stick died, it is a known issue I found out) Replaced it with a nice thrustmaster.

There you go, that's exactly what's wrong with it! Left thumb stick is broken (it seems to signal to the PC to move left all the time) [:(] It seems to be such a fragile gamepad - I didn't even get to use it much at all.

There seems to be a huge price difference between PC and console gamepads. Hopefully the the Xbox PC controller will be reasonably priced. Having an analog stick makes all the difference in driving/air sim games on the PC. I bought a analog joystick aimed for flight sims which I use in Battlefield 2. It's awesome, and with a tiny bit of practise I am able to turn the heli on a dime and land/move exactly where I want it to.

The Xbox 360 Controller is about $60-70, but ur going to have to import one unless you have a local game importer store.

Harvey Norman in Brisbane CBD is selling the Xbox360 controllers for PC.

What about joining a DnD group? Sorry, thats the geek comming out in me :p

How about joining a BnD group? They have a lot of role playing too. Sorry, that is the pervert coming out of me ;).

You could look at becoming a volunteer for an organisation of some kind. If you play Magic you could join up with people. DnD as stated above. Look at joining a sports team.

something active - sport, excercise :)
musical? join a band

How about some life drawing classes, meet other artists, chat about stuff, relax.. But importantly you will be drawing too..

i second the idea of the life drawing classes, does wonders for your skill and you get to be around like minded people.

edit: oh and rock on, im just out too ;)

Skateboarding!

I second the sport motion, specifically team sports. You meet so many people playing sport, plus it sorta keeps you healthy, and you feal great (although tired as hell) afterwards. :-)

Surfing! Incredible exercise, great social atmosphere, and awesome fun.

And congrats guys on finishing school!

Just waiting for the retail version now :)

I bought it on PSP, It is MUCH better than NFS:Underground rivals.
Works great on the PSP Platform

Its not bad, i haven't played it all the way through yet, but I love piling my suped up car into the dirty pigs :)

Haha, cool @:-D

That's great [:)] I got up to 96 before it started stressing me out. [;)]

I used to adore Game & Watches when I was a pre-schooler. I used to think they were the most amazing thing ever when they first came out.

Hey, I checked it out. Haven't delved too much into it (just ran around town annoying people), but the art is great, and it looks very polished [:)]. Flash definately has come a long way!

quite a horrible program....i cant think of anything worse than them discussing games.

[:)] Never watched it. No idea who is on the panel.

just a bunch of snotty "Experts" on Art or Literature commenting on current culture events and offer opinions on whether they are "good" or not.
Except for Richard Fidler, he offers a bit of sarcastic comedy and doesn't seem to really care. :)

Hey, it's on right now [:0] Marcus Westbury from Nextwave / Freeplay is on the panel.

Ok, that didn't last very long. Seems like it was a bit rushed, being the last segment of the show. Street Survivor was barely touched on, Escape from Woomera was mentioned by name only, and there was some puzzling comments about games originating from the military and being a form of killing simulators. :/

Pretty obvious that some major misconceptions about games are still alive today.

dang it i missed it. orgot about it and just rememebred now at 10:25. dosn't sound like i missed much though.

I've never seen Vulture before either, and it seems ScORCHo's warning was right on the dot.

quote:there was some puzzling comments about games originating from the military and being a form of killing simulators. :/
I think what she meant was that games like most of our technology, came about first due to military needs, and that military tech and development has been the driving force for much of our technology. For instance, the atomic energy was first developed as a weapon before it was practically developed as a power source. Another example ? and one they used on the show ? was that the Internet came about due to Military needs, where the tech was developed to have a network where if one node was destroyed due to an attack ? like in a nuclear strike ? then the rest of the network would keep on humming along.

Though I understand what she meant by her comments, I don?t understand why she brought it up in relation to games.

The only answer I come to is that it was meant to indicate how limited games were as an art-form compared to a form like film, to undermine its integrity, not so much as a remark about games being killing simulators. It is funny though, in that she also mentions that modern films are derived or inspired from military technology and developments ? I suppose she did not see the irony in her comments.

Well, she emphasized that games concentrated on players killing each other (and I'm sure she used the word simulator here) which prompted Marcus to say that there was a broad spectrum of games and game types. And yeh, that's what I meant by puzzling - why was it even brought up?

Interesting to see the comments, talking to the researchers and other panelists made me realise that there is a huge gulf between people who play games and what people who don't imagine them to be. Still, was interesting to see a TV show have a serious go at having a discussion about the relevence/ significane/ etc of games and i had fun.

marcus.

Well i planned to actually watch it....but got distracted by someting else. I thought there would be comments like that from the panel, single minded opinions gathered only by what they know from the media, because they really have no interest.

Games are portrayed in the media as inspiring killing, but really they are just entertainment. The military have their simulators, the public have their video games. Sure you have some nutjobs who who kill people and play games, but im sure they just enjoy playing games and really have some deeper issues.

The current media sucks. We need more open minds in it, people who arent afraid to expand past societies guidelines. The internet is good for that, but it doesnt get across to people like tv does.

Another thing about her comments, if it was some kind of ?proof? that games were ?killing-simulators,? then it is not much in the way of proof in showing how society and humanity as a whole is aggressive and competitive in nature ? it is not just a computer game phenomenon. If it wasn?t for this aggressive / competitive nature, we wouldn?t be at the point we are today as a society and in technology ? as this is what has driven it. Instead we would be munching on grass in some alien?s paddock, getting fattened up for the slaughter.

In particular it irritates me, when people paint games as a violent influence on children. It doesn?t seem to appear to these individuals and researchers, that perhaps aggressive play is a normal and an important formative element of a child?s development, especially in young males. As this develops characteristics and skills like: leadership, assertiveness, teamwork, ambition, etc ? I am sure there are better and more examples, even ones like: compassion, empathy and fairness.

I?ve often heard anthropologists refer to this concept of killer-apes that killed off the rest of the walking and tool using apes, leading to the rise of modern man. But there is something that they never seem to put together about these apes as they ponder where exactly these killer-apes went. I mean, where are exactly these ?killer-apes? that these anthropologists refer to exactly? Are they not at the top of the food chain now, their ancestors that is. Aren?t they us?

I really think it is pathetic when people see themselves as something that they are not. By censoring and banning games, you are not going to stop violent crime, as ScORCHo points out, there are always going to be people that play games and also end up killing people, but other issues are the result, not games ? as aggressiveness is a normal part of human behaviour. Either they are born that way, with some kind of mental defect or personality trait ? ie a psychopath ? or they were conditioned that way due to the influence of the people they grew up with, like there parents and family ? and there actions are a result of something like child-abuse, which can also lead to someone having the characteristics of a psychopath.

Games don?t make people into killers, people do. Games are just a scapegoat because people don?t want to face the reality that they helped create these people themselves, either directly with their actions, or indirectly in their ignorance and inaction to do anything about it.

quote:Originally posted by CynicalFan


Another thing about her comments, if it was some kind of ?proof? that games were ?killing-simulators,? then it is not much in the way of proof in showing how society and humanity as a whole is aggressive and competitive in nature ? it is not just a computer game phenomenon. If it wasn?t for this aggressive / competitive nature, we wouldn?t be at the point we are today as a society and in technology ? as this is what has driven it. Instead we would be munching on grass in some alien?s paddock, getting fattened up for the slaughter.

I forgot about the show myself [:D]...
But don't you find things like America's Army rather scary? Doesn't the idea of having Uncle Sam sending top scoring players emails asking them "Son, would you like to come and join the army?" or something like it (which I gather happens to some) freak you out a bit? KumaWar http://www.kumawar.com/ is just as scary in some ways... Look at the site "Featured Mission: Assault on Iran" [:(] [:0] [:X]!!!

Ian Bell (one of the authors of Elite), on the politics and games panel at freeplay 04, talked about the sense of responsibility he's feeling these days, because of all the millions of people his work has influenced, and the particularly the people who his work had inspired a passion for making games.

Edit: Then there's the issue of the american army showing off their new tech at the GDC a while back (according to Brody Condon at least, as I've said elsewhere I haven't been to the GDC).

I'm not arguing with what you're saying btw, just those 2 games and military hardware at a games conference in particular really worry me.

Sure it is scary in a way, but more disgusting. But you have to realize that games are merely a tool, they don?t make people into killers. People make people into killers, like the US army. From what I understand from documentaries that I have watched, the US army uses all kind of tricks to get young men to enlist into the army, using a game as a tool to achieve this doesn?t surprise me, but it doesn?t make me want to demonise games.

It is also a case of other media influences in the US that promote the ?war on terror? and also promote a nationalistic (patriotic) agenda. Young men are easily swayed by this, they are at an age where many want to make a difference or some such thing. Look at any politic / religious organization, and chances are that you will find them dominated by young men.

Sure I feel in a way responsible when approaching my game development, but more so in trying to create a game that is not just seen as a ?game? but as entertainment. I think it is about time that game makers made some effort to justify the use of violence and other elements in a game, as many filmmakers do. Though there are films that are just about the action and violence, many use the violence to make a point or to support an element of the story.

They just don?t have it for the sake of having it. Not that that is bad, just poor story / game making.

As for the army being at a game developer?s conference, I can see why they would do it, they make and use tactical and strategic simulations for war gaming, and have used the services and talent of game developers to do so ? Pandemic Studios comes to mind.

It is not so much this that bothers me, but more that they are using games to recruit young impressionable and na?ve men into the army. But then again, perhaps that is their calling in life, for some it is making games, being a chef, being an office admin, and for others it is the thrill of shooting at people and blowing shit up ? better they do it for their country than do it one weekend at the shopping centre because they felt like it.

Though such games are ?military-sims,? these sims have been made by the amry to be as realitic as possible, which does not exactly translate into gameplay ? our input and output devises just haven?t come far enough, that is why we utilize concessions to make games easier to play, like a minimap.

It is also one thing to shoot at representation of an enemy soldier on a screen, it is another to be in a firefight with real enemy soldiers, taking one in the leg, suffering sever damage to the muscle and bone that the leg has to be amputated, and then having to live with that for the rest of your life. Most people are not that stupid to realize that this is the ?reality? of war.

I think they would generally join the army because one, there is something wrong in their head in a mental way, two, they believe in the cause and want to fight for their nation, three, the always wanted to be in the army and would have joined regardless. Games may have just been one of the motivations for this, others may have been films, or books, or a website. If it was not the game, it would have been something else, as that desire was there in some shape or form to begin with.

For instance, Jeffery Damer ? I think that was his name ? used to watch one scene from Return of the Jedi over and over again, where the emperor was in his throne with the young Luke at his feet in agony. Now, just because this one freak got off on that scene and used it to inspire him to kill a bunch of young men doesn?t men that we should then go and ban the movie and any other movie with scenes like it. It was not the scene or movie that caused him to do the things he did, it may have given him ideas, but that was not the source of his vile crimes ? other factors were the cause.

To use games as a tool, we can use the analogy of a power-drill, most people use it to drill holes in inanimate object and materials in a home handyman kind of way, but it could also be used to drill a hole in someone?s head. Is this the fault of the drill? Should we ban all drills because someone could use it for such or has used it for such? Of course not.

Furthermore, sure games in a round about way can teach you some things when it comes to shooting a gun at someone. But, it is not the source for someone to go out and shoot someone. If someone is so inclined, they may find inspiration and get ideas from playing such games, but the games are not themselves to blame or the source, if they then go out and start shooting people. Plus, games are rarely ?realistic? enough to teach you much, shooting a gun on screen is not the same as shooting one in real life at someone ? the experience is not realistically simulated, not even in AA.

Just because someone may acquire the skills and know how to do something, doesn?t mean they are going to do it. For instance, I could quite easily learn from the internet how to make a bomb, but that doesn?t mean that I am going to go and do it. Games are not the only source for this, films and books are also a source for this. Then there are physical games like paintball skirmish ? talk about a military killing-sim and a hell of a lot of fun ;).

Sure game makers should strive to have a good reason for having violence, but I don?t see games as being the source of violence anymore than I would see films and books as being a source of violence ? they may inspire, but they are not the origin of the violence, far more human factors are the source of this.

Games are a tool that can be used in a number of ways, one is for greater benefit and good, another way could be a wrong way. Just because it is used wrongly doesn?t mean that the tool is to blame or something to fear and to be banned.

I've read somewhere that America's Army has been so incredibly successful as a way of promoting the army and getting recruits, which also costs far less than their other promotional methods (tv / media advertising etc), that you won't be seeing that campaign disappearing anytime soon.
I think that highlights the potential that games have as a medium to inform and educate, which I'm sure was the reason why Street Survivor and Escape from Woomera took on that medium.

Just referring back to the comments early on about what the lady said on the show, which was something like "games seem to be all about killing". It just rubs me a little the wrong way when I hear comments like that. Marcus said that there is a broad spectrum of games, and I'd add that there was a survey, which I'm sure was done by the ESRB that said MA classified games (where a lot of shooting/killing games fall in to) make up such a tiny portion of the games that are released each year. I think the focus on violence in games these days by the media has led a lot of people to believe that those kind of games are all that's available, which is so far from the truth.

(I wish I could remember the link - but the survey was mentioned in a fantastic interview with someone from the ESRB responding to Jack Thompson's claims that the ESRB was failing at regulating games sprung from the whole Hot Coffee fiasco.)

Ok, I watched it finally, and [url="http://www.meeze.com/dpm/Vulture.wmv"]if you want a very small low-quality version then take a look (~2.5Mb)[/url].

Regarding the militaristic comments, I'm also not really sure what her meaning was, although it seemed as though she was trying to talk about games and film not being "real". I guess she prefers interpretive dance and street theatre? And anyway, it's not a good arts show without the words 'militaristic' and 'phallic' used in close proximity. Marcus I applaud your ability to keep a straight face :)

As for america's army... I think [url="http://www.seriousgamessummit.com/home.html"]they're in gaming to stay[/url]. I'm not sure if lorien would think the AIE or the Army were worse sponsors of a games conference though. :)

Personally I see nothing wrong with it. I made a choice not to work for Boeing in Brisbane because they're a weapons manufacturer, the same way that you make a choice with your games every day.

Hey, it seems there's some local studies on [url="http://www.ieaa.com.au/factsAndResearch/gamesAndViolence.do"]violence in games[/url], and shooting/killing games in particular that's worthy of a mention here..

quote:Aggressive content is a feature of games just as it is in films. The ?blood and gore? games fill a niche similar to horror movies and heavy metal music. ?Aggressive games appear among but do not dominate best selling titles?.

Generational attitudes towards games are also explained [;)]

A very large part of Kipper's point in EFW was that games can be used to show another view of the world.

I had the essay around somewhere, I'll try and hunt it up and post it (Kipper told me it's fine to do so).

In case you are wondering there was quite a bit of cross-over between acmipark and Escape from Woomera. We helped each other out in a bunch of ways.

EFW isn't a shooter (for those who don't know). The goal of the demo level is to get a pair of plyers, not to kill anyone. It's an escape.

Kipper knows innocent refugees who spent quite a while in the woomera detention centre.

Phil Ruddock (the same who has been keeping out the R rating) called it "unlawful" in the national media- I understand the environment is very accurate.

http://escapefromwoomera.org

Here's some of the FAQ
quote:
Q: By basing the game on the perpetration of illegal activities such as breaking out of detention aren't you inciting people to break the law?

A: This raises a further question:
"By basing the game on the perpetration of illegal activities, such as locking up people without trial, aren't you inciting governments to break the law?" Fortunately for those worried that the game would encourage refugees to break out of detention, or would incite governments around the world to break international law and defy UN conventions, these ideas show a real ignorance about the nature of videogames. Giving a player agency within a fictional game world - allowing them to make decisions and act out roles - is not at all the same as incitement or advocacy. Though there have been many studies done to try to prove a causal link between virtual actions in game and the real-life actions of the game player (for example "do violent videogames make kids violent"), no link whatsoever has ever been found. If we apply Ruddock's logic to the world's top-selling game for over a year (how many gamers do you know that haven't played GTA3?)- Grand Theft Auto III- a game in which the central premise is breaking the law, we'd presumably be seeing a massive increase in car thefts, prostitution and murder, and we'd have to believe that Rockstar games (the developers) condone such activities in real life. And finally, let's stop to consider exactly which law would be broken in an escape from detention. Yes, believe it or not - it's actually legally a crime punishable by imprisonment (oh irony of ironies!) to step outside a detention centre to 'tresspass' on Australian soil.

Q: Wouldn't making a game on this subject trivialise something that is a very serious issue?

A: We're attempting to create a play-space in which people can have access to and engage with this issue in an unprecedented and unique way. We're serious about the issue and as game developers we're serious about games and game culture. We're confident that there is a community of gamers out there who are passionate about their medium, and who are looking for an innovation in the nature of game content. Unlike the makers of, say, Grand Theft Auto III (who deserve enormous respect for their achievements in gameplay terms) we seek to engage player's minds - emotionally, ethically, intellectually - not just their trigger fingers. When non-gamers think about videogames they often confuse content with form. Just because some of the most high-profile commercial games might be considered "bad taste" for their 'gratuitous' use of violence and no brain content it doesn't follow that the interactive nature of the videogame medium itself is a barrier to the representation of serious issues. Early films were predominantly slapstick comedy and pornography - but noone today would deny that the film medium itself is robust enough to carry challenging content. However, obviously we're not just trying to create a straight-forward documentary game or a dry educational tool. Neither was Roberto Benigni when he made the made the award-winning film "Life Is Beautiful". That's why the film was condemned by a section of the Holocaust remembrance establishment - for the supposed lack of gravity in his depiction of the Holocaust experience.
Believe it or not, the truth is we're sick and tired of games that create heroes out of professional killers and US marines. For us, refugees are some of the greatest and most legitimate heroes of our time. And we're not prepared to hold back and leave this facet of their story untold because the lives of these remarkable individuals collectively constitute an 'issue' so serious that it is supposedly 'untouchable'.

Q: But isn't this game the height of bad taste?

A: Well, that seems to be implying that we're trying to make a joke - a joke in poor taste. And actually, you could say that by consciously making accessible a fully immersive experience of an environment that has been deemed strictly off limits by the powers-that-be is the height of political satire. But no, that's not true; the height of political satire was when the eighteenth century Irish writer Jonathan Swift suggested that the English solve the problem of poverty in Ireland by simply encouraging Irish peasants to sell their children to the rich as a tasty alternative to pork. Interestingly, 'A Modest Proposal' is considered the greatest piece of political satire in the history of English literature - and not a 'bad taste' trivialisation of the plight of the Irish. Hezbollah, who fought on the front line against the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, don't seem to think that the videogame is a medium that necessarily trivialises their fight for freedom against 20 years of Israeli occupation. In fact, they made a game themselves.
Meanwhile, Under-ash is a popular game with kids in the middle-east (including Palestine). It documents the first Palestinian Intifada. Interestingly, every time your character gets killed in this game a voice-over informs you that your corpse will be identified and members of your family will tortured and possibly killed as a result. Bad taste? Or a much-needed dose of the truth in the world of videogames?

That IEAA study is exactly right. What it comes down to is:
A. People who play games love playing games because they are fun & entertaining, or plus they make games and love the technology and the art. No other reason.
B. People who make comments about this game violence/people violence issue are so uninformed, have never played a video game in their life, and really have absolutley no interest to. This is not a bad thing, it just means that gamere and non-gamers are totally different people.

What i can't stand is when humans get the slightest bit of information about something, they suddenly assume that they know exactly what is going on. To become truly informed about something you need to do it, not just read about it. See im doing it now!! curse this human psychology!

This was presented by Kipper via a speech synth at freeplay last year. I was given permission to pass it around freely, so long as it is attributed to Kipper.

quote:
Last night in his keynote talk Harvey Smith told us that games can change
the world. He also said that we must ignore the cynics and believe in games
as a medium, an artform that has enormous potential; that the work of game
developers of today, as early pioneers of this artform, will be poured over
and analysed in years to come.

I think this is absolutely true.

I would also add that the future of game development isn't set, that game
developers today have an historic and cultural duty to consider how they are
shaping the future of their artform.

And if we are to contend that games are more than toys and are in fact an
emerging artform, we are at once contending that games are by nature
political and that, consistent with every other artistic or expressive
medium, the future of the game medium will be shaped by struggle.

From control of the ideology of game content to control over game
production - these are some of the battlefronts in the present and future
war being waged in the world of videogames. The political nature of the
videogame and the game industry cannot be denied, though widespread denial
is in the interests of some powerful forces.

To create games is to create culture, in the context of cultural struggle. I
believe it is important to engage in this struggle.

Following is a something I originally wrote with the intention of
interesting a somewhat conservative left in the political potential and
reality of games. Because I am unable to attend this panel in person I find
myself recycling this piece with a very different audience in mind. But
neverthless, here it is.

Activists often use the slogan "another world is possible". This slogan
implies a great deal about the barriers we face in trying to agitate for
revolutionary change. We feel the need to point out, in an almost truistic
fashion, that it is in fact possible to change the world, in spite of all
appearances - appearances fostered by those in power with an interest in
maintaining the status quo.

How do we convince people of the theoretical existence of this other
possible world?

We point to fleeting glimpses of a divergent future that are sometimes
thrown up in day to day struggles, we raise consciousness through the
discussion and disemination of theory and history. The left also has a proud
tradition of teasing the popular consciousness with the possibility of other
worlds through the creation of alternative culture - with, for example,
events like the Reclaim the Streets parties today, and more historically,
works of art, film and literature that acquaint their audience with social
and political possibilities by way of the imagination.

But what if we took that slogan literally for a moment: "another world is
possible". What if we were able to actually simulate those other possible
worlds; worlds in which history was 'actively' participated in, and future
struggles rehearsed? This is what the medium of the videogame offers.

As the influence of game culture grows, games will become an important
cultural weapon in the class war. They are already being used in the service
of imperialist ideological hegemony, and even the US military are making
games for the mass market.

But this medium isn't limited to being a one way conduit for ideas. Games
can show that the status quo is mutable, and that another world is possible.
As more of the real world is simulated in the virtual domain, the state of
the world is copied into game-state: a malleable set of abstractions to be
'played' with. As Julian Oliver, the executive producer on our project once
put it: through our ability to simulate the real we can give people the
means of developing a toolkit of ideas for breaking the rules of the real.

There is nothing unusual or new about dealing with 'serious' subject matter
and contemporary struggles in the context of gameplay. Play has historically
had an important social role as a "safe" context in which to rehearse real
challenges and conflicts. It is a naturally evolved tool in the preparations
for war. Although the parents who sue game publishers on the basis that
"games incited my son to steal cars and shoot his classmates" are hopelessly
misinformed, I agree with them on one thing: games are powerful stuff.

I don't agree, however, with the soft left commentators who decry the
violent and conflict-based nature of some videogames and say that gamers
should instead be fed a steady diet of the adventures of cutesy
anthropomorphised animals. Let's not retreat to fluffy la-la land when it
comes to youth culture in a time of war and social injustice. Let's exploit
the dangerous, subversive side of games and drag them kicking and screaming
into the service of left political discourse. It's about time we staked a
claim on this cultural territory. In answer to games like "F/A 18: Operation
Iraqi Freedom" let's design games called "Operation Defend Iraq: Defeat the
US-led Occupation". Hezbollah have already documented their military
campaigns against the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon in a PC game
they developed called "Special Force", and Palestinian kids throw virtual
rocks at Israeli tanks in the Syrian produced game "Under Ash".

These ideas have helped provide the context for my involvement with the
videogame project Escape From Woomera.

With Escape From Woomera we hope to provide a space to engage with political
ideas in a new way: by inviting players to assume the character of a refugee
to 'live' through their experiences and take on their challenges.

The Australian state and their mercenaries Australasian Correctional
Management have gone to extraordinary lengths to deny the public and the
media access to immigration detention centres. We took this as a
provocation, a challenge. ACM may be able to stop people leaving the camps
with photographs, but they can't erase the memories of their victims. The
government won't let the public see what it's like inside? Fine; let's just
create a virtual model of the place and invite the public to 'step' inside
and find out for themselves.

While Hollywood churns out tales of white man heroism and historical
rewrites of war-time adversity, here in our backyard we house the unsung
heroes of our time, the ones who have bravely kept on fighting against
oppression and injustice long after they arrived in the so-called "Free
World". I'd like to think that some future society, with the benefit of
hindsight, would at least come to recognise these people for the heroes they
truly are, instead of the cowardly opportunists they are portrayed as in the
mainstream media. If we want to help effect effect change in the here and
now, however, the fictional tales of refugees throwing their children
overboard must be met right now with the true stories of refugees' own
stories about their experiences in Australia.

In April 2003 the Escape From Woomera project was granted $25,000 to design
and prototype a first person 3D adventure game. Currently we are finishing
the prototype, which we will use to attempt to acquire further funding.
Unfortunately, games cost a great deal more than $25,000 to make, and in the
current arts funding climate for new media and with the federal government's
bullying of the Australia Council over the funding of our project, the
prospects of public funding for a project like ours seem slim.

Despite my optimism for the potential for games as tools of cultural
resistance, I recognise the limitations of what we are doing. For me, Escape
From Woomera is more "immersive propaganda" (my term) than a piece of
"tactical media activism" (a fashionable term for a form of cultural
resistance). I can't help feeling that labelling our project as a form of
activism would seem like a passive propagandist excuse for opting out of
'real' activism. Hopefully with Escape From Woomera we will be able to
inspire gamers to act in the real world, because it is this world that must
be changed.

In case you can't tell Kipper and I get along rather well [:)] Wish I could come up with quotes like "Let's not retreat to fluffy la-la land when it comes to youth culture in a time of war and social injustice."

This is completely off topic, but here's another one of my favourite Kipper quotes
quote:
It's perfectly natural that entry-level applicants wouldn't and shouldn't come fully skilled for tiny (yes, compared to other industries, tiny!) specialist industries "out of the box". Training was provided on the job in the past and to change the rules expect kids to foot the bill nowadays is just unfair - and moreover locking out a large section of talented people from the industry who can't afford the technology and training for a vocation they only have a *chance* at securing paid employment from. I object to the idea of one day kids being forced to get a PhD in texturing dogs' bollocks to get a game dev. job just because the GDAA has been whinging for years in the media and to gullible government bureaucrats with the old "it's impossible to find good help these days" bullshit. Given that many senior local game developers who have been made "redundant" over the last few years are often finding it hard to get back into the industry, i find the one-sided rhetoric rather dishonest and disrespectful. It's also not uncommon for game dev. companies to keep advertisements permanently posted for positions they're don't currently have open, "just in case", or the positions are dependent on some contract that is currently in la-la land, waiting to be signed by the publisher fairy. Insisting on "heat and eat" (metaphor whole-heartedly intentional) game developer graduates is not going to increase the level of professionalism in our industry. It sure as hell takes two to tango, and I'm not seeing much genuine effort being put in on the other side of the dancefloor where the employers are standing. Let's give the kids a break - they deserve it.

It's from early last year.

To fill the silence that normally follows after quoting Kipper anywhere [:)] I thought I'd post a bit about Street Survivor. Kirsty Baird is the big project person, and it was worked on by a La Trobe comp-sci academic- Dr Richard Hall. I don't know who the rest of the team are/were.

I haven't played it (!) so I'll use some quotes to describe it.

On the selectparks site http://www.selectparks.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=251 it's descibed as
quote:
... political documentary game Street Survivor. Street Survivor tracks the activities of a homeless girl in Melbourne Australia. Real world survival tips are embedded in the game. Game designer Kirsty Baird has worked hard to prevent the game from becoming a condescending youth arts project; game play offers real challenges as the balance between the helpful and harmful effects of drugs, bots and the city must be balanced.

And on avantgaming http://www.avantgaming.com/streetsurvivor.html
quote:
Street Survivor documents the activities of Sonya; a homeless adolescent girl in Melbourne Australia. Sonya finds herself in a reality filled with addiction, hunger, violence, and crime as she attempts to escape her past while searching for a new future. The game is targeted to at-risk adolescents who are homeless or may have a high probability of becoming homeless. Ultimately, the game is hopes to give youth a better understanding of life on the street and educate them on the types of support that is available.

I seem to remember hearing something about trouble caused by some realistic amphetamine use (afaik Sonya uses some speed to give herself the energy to get out of an abusive situation). Don't know how realistic or if I got that muddled...

While I can certainly understand Kipper's point of view, I'm not sure that approach is the only way, nor the best way. It is, however a right way.

I've just played through most of EFW, and you're right, it's quite powerful. However like a lot of manifesto style media (ie: arthouse film) it's not easy to find, nor to get into. I keep wondering where our Michael Moore, and our Trey Parker/Matt Stone are?

I want to see short, punchy casual flash games which get emailled between office workers.[url="http://www.rpi.edu/dept/llc/webclass/web/project1/group4/"]Ethos (rather than EoW/SS's pathos, and kipper's Logos)[/url] used as a tool to open the eyes of the world.

I read a quote I'm going to have to look up in [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Mars"]Kim Stanley Robinson's Blue Mars[/url] which paraphrased, in response to someone claiming they don't care about politics is "That's exactly what those who do care want you to think!".

I think EFW would probably have ended up rather different with more funding. That's just a prototype demo that was made to try for more funding.

I've been told The Australia Council tried to censor it- they wanted it set in the distant future with no mention of Woomera- read between the lines stuff again. I think you can guess the kind of reaction Kipper had to that idea [:)]

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
I want to see short, punchy casual flash games which get emailled between office workers.[url="http://www.rpi.edu/dept/llc/webclass/web/project1/group4/"]Ethos (rather than EoW/SS's pathos, and kipper's Logos)[/url] used as a tool to open the eyes of the world.

Unfortunately I think we are more likely to see these toys used for direct marketing and advertising.

Nike shoes as a power up that really make you run faster in the virtual world with the option to buy online via credit card at the end of level for example [:(] Games that really try to figure out who is playing them to target in game advertisments and select which power-ups players are most likely to like, then buy in the real world. DON'T GET ANY IDEAS ANYONE! [:)] I thought of it years ago and wished I hadn't...

BTW mcdrewski you should have a look at DonkeyJohn http://www.donkeyjohn.com/donkeyjohn/

Donkey Kong played by John Howard throwing barrels of East Timor crude oil down to Australia [:)]

[url="http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051201/demaria_02.shtml"]This one looks interesting[/url]. Non-violent resistance sim...

intriguing.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

[url="http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051201/demaria_02.shtml"]This one looks interesting[/url]. Non-violent resistance sim...

intriguing.

I agree, and I see the name "Zimmerman" [:)]

On your suggestion of political flash games you should have a look at the work of [url="http://ludoligy.org"]Gonzalo Frasca [/url] and his [url="http://ludology.org/staticpages/index.php?page=20041216022502102"]list of games[/url]

He's probably the master of the area, and he spoke at ACMI a while ago- the things you Brisbane guys (edit: and girls, sorry) miss out on by not having ACMI [:)]

Go check out Whirlpool forums and use the search facility to find great plans across all the providers.

http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc-plan.cfm?loc=3

For instance a quick queensland search shows a bunch of providers that will give you unlimited data DL for $50 at 256/64. If you can though go for a 1500/256 or one of the new DSLAM 8000 plans. mmmm speedy. ( dont go below 512/128 if you can help it :-) )

See Link
http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc-plan.cfm?state=qld&class=0&type=res&cost=…

hi makk

I remember trying to run my adsl connection through a 3 computer network... [:X] not fun at all

Instead buy your self a good adslmodem/4 port router. then you can use your modem as your network hub and directly connect each computer to the internet + you have the added safety of a hardware filewall

What ever modem/router you buy Make sure it's adsl2+ compatible.
adsl 2+ is a new internet standard which allows you to get speeds of up to 24mbs, normal modems are only limited to 8.[V]

i'm using bigpond cable (their modem) and a <$200 Linksys/Cisco WRT56G wireless/4-port firewall/router. Couldn't be happier. Much quieter, more reliable and better than using a PC with the modem on it. "Unlimited" (10G then shaped) telstra plan is expensive at $60/mth but it was the best (and safest - no overage charges was one of my requirements) at the time I signed up.

I went to whirlpool (see mick's post above) to review plans and look at discussions before I chose.

I decided by checking out a review in an APC magazine and they reckon Internode is the best.
[url]http://adsl.internode.on.net/[/url]
I pay $50 a month for 512/128 on a 15 gig limit. And I wouldn?t want any smaller limit or slower speed.

Also, what Djenx said is good advice - get a good adsl modem/router. Do not go with a plan that comes with a modem - better to choose your own router.

I went with the Billion Bipac 5100 firewall/router.

BTW, the jump from dial-up to broadband is awesome!!

i hear Netspace is good, and the prices were good last time i checked anyway (several months ago now though). i woulsnt worry to much about the download limit though, after you initial download frenzy (where i currently am) you probably wont use all that much (or at least i assume i wont be) - just make sure you have enough for demos and such.

Yes this is all excellent info that I can use, thankyou. :)
I will look into getting a wireless 4-port router (and cards).
We had small talk, havent decided what plan yet.
God, I hope we get it. Im so bloody sick of dialup speed :(

I just managed to get ADSL connected out here in the sticks.. it took forever but TPG were the ones that actually got it done for me. With them I'm on 1500/256 20GB unlimited shaped for $49/month, but its just been bumped up to $69! Luckily I'm on a contract so it doesn't affect me.

I think TPG now have a 512/128MB 15GB Unlimited Shaped plan for $49 instead.

As said above, I wouldn't go lower than 512/128 if I could help it.

I'm on the Internode 512/128 15GB plan for $49.95, and I have to say I've been pleased with the service. However they are a South Australian company so I don't know what the service / coverage will be like in the other states.

But yeah, do check out the whirlpool forums.

Im on a TPG 1.5m plan, 20 gig DL limit, and then it gets shaped to 8kb, (I hardly cap it out, but come really close) Pretty cheap at $49 a month. From memory it comes with a free modem. (i got a 4 port lan thou)

pop

Im on the same plan as Daemin. (Daemin - I'm on the Internode 512/128 15GB plan for $49.95, and I have to say I've been pleased with the service. However they are a South Australian company so I don't know what the service / coverage will be like in the other states.)

I recently joined up with internode and that's in Canberra, seems good so far.

I'm on a 256 unlimited plan at home with Hypermax, it's a bit pricey though, the competition has knocked a few bucks off since I started. Got a $120 DSL Modem/Router today (last night in the storms my old modem/router totally fried along with my network card). Works wonders for me, 4 port network.
BigPong is a tricky thing to work with, I don't recommend it. (Voted the worst in customer service in Australia a year or two ago)

I'm on Bigpond's unlimited broadband plan. And by unlimited, I mean limited to 10 gigs. In fact, they're pretty stringent on that limit now, so as soon as you go over that, you'll get throttled down. I'd only recommend Bigpond if you mainly play games or download lots of game demos and software as they have their own game and file servers which don't add to your limit.

Kizza's mention of Bigpond's customer service reminds me of my last tech support with them a month or so ago. My connection had been down for 4 days, so I call up. The tech support guy asks me to describe my connection set up - I had the modem connected via usb, but the technician that came to install it left a spare ethernet cable dangling off it. Anyway, I mention that and the tech support guy accuses me of connecting 2 computers to the modem and that he can see two i.p address at his end coming from my modem. I tell him that I don't have two computers (my spare computer which ran Sumea Paintchat is broken), and that the ethernet cable was connected to nothing. Those two i.ps were most likely due to me turning my modem off and on trying to get a connection and the old i.p not timing out. Anyway, he wasn't convinced, was pretty darn rude about it, and in the end wasn't helpful at all. So I hung up, called back and got someone else to talk to who then organised a technician to come on the following Monday.

So Monday comes, and no one even comes at all. I call up to find out what the heck was happening and they told me that my area has had some major work done and that it all should be fixed soon. :/ It seems to me that things are usually good, but when you run into a connection problem, it's a major hassle to get fixed with Telstra Bigpond. I've had a fair few of these connection problems, where tech support is no help, and it's usually a matter of waiting a few days for them to repair the local exchange.

Anyway, with that kind of downtime, I think it would be pretty reasonable if they refunded a weeks worth of connection fees to me, but I guess that kind of compensation is really unheard of.

closing comments: Good god, about time you're off dialup, my good man. [:D]

I just had a look at some of bigponds plans, they want $129 a month for a plan that i'm paying $49 for [:D] & they own the network![:0]!

Makk have a look at the Australian Broadband Survey 2004
[url]http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm/1467[/url]

& the Australian Broadband Survey 2003
[url]http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm/1225[/url]

that should give you all of the info you need to find a reliable isp

I've not had any problems with telstra at all, but that said I've never had to call tech support.

if I do there will be trouble, I know.

Just a tip for everyone when dealing with customer service departments in general. When the first person you speak with is usless, ask for their name and then ask to speak with their boss. Normaly this results in you getting access to a person with more knowledge and more powers to change/fix your problem. The higher you go the bigger theiir powers to help you are!

I am now on teh internut superfast train surfing on the information superhighway!!!!1146and2
:)
We went with Telstra bigpond 512 plan! *ducks rotten tomatoes*
But Im liking it so far :)

Make sure you download all your demos, game videos and files from www.gamearena.com.au at *superduper* fast speeds, and it won't even add to your bandwidth limit. Also play on Gamearena servers as well for the same reason [:)]

Ahh, I've pretty much run out of things to download these days. If you're bored, you can watch a game related weekly streaming show called [url="http://www.gamespot.com/pages/features/onthespot/index.php"]On the Spot[/url] at Gamespot (Gamespot has some awesome streaming game previews, reviews, developer interviews as well). Another place to waste some bandwitth is at www.thatvideosite.com [:D] Some pretty funny and weird stuff there.

ive actually taken to watching on the spot weekly like a regular tv show, they may screw around a lot but it can actually be quite good. Theyve got daily videos on their main page aswell but they never work for me for some reason :(

Yeah Souri thats where I go first to download game related stuff.
Speaking of, wow I can finally watch some next gen trailers. Cant wait till oblivion :)

Another bandwidth sucking site I'd recommend is Kikizo.com. They have some awesome BIG game movies, trailers, developer interviews there. Check out the [url="http://www.kikizo.com/viewer/vidview_games.asp?games/projectgotham3_vid…"]Project Gotham Racing 3 developer interview[/url] which goes on for about 25 minutes [:)]

theres some biting little messages left at the bottom of that collum but all in all it sounds like a the right course of action.

the mans an attention seeking whore, not a game designer ill say that much. To quote Tim Buckley from CAD who basically sums up my thuoghts well: "First of all, is it really "charity" if you're asking something in return? Why not just donate the money for the sake of helping other people, Jack? Why do you have to use it as a publicity stunt to try and keep yourself in the spotlight?" (CAD = http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/ )

if i had the means i wouldnt make it as is. Well, i wouldnt make it at all, but hypothetically speaking - not strictly to the line: "...high school boy beaten to death with a baseball bat by a 14-year-old gamer. The killer obsessively played a violent video game in which one of the favored ways of killing is with a bat."

though it would be good to throw it back at Jack Thompson and have the real cause of the murder be something other than to do with games. you know, like neglect, abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc. etc. and basically turn the whole thing into a comentary on how rediculious simply playing a game alone could turn someone into a vicious killer. call his bluff and throw it back at him!

also, [url="www.penny-arcade.com"]penny arcade[/url] had some interesting posts about this earlier today:

quote:You may have seen Jack?s proposal mentioned on various news sites. He?s offering 10 grand to charity if a game developer makes a game based on his insane proposal.

So I got his email address and I went ahead and sent Jack a note this morning:

10 grand is pretty weak man. Through our charity www.childsplaycharity.org gamers have given over half a million dollars in toys and cash to children?s hospitals all over the country.

I?ll let you know if he responds.

The fact is when we kick off Child?s Play 2005 on November 1st we?ll be going global. We?ll be delivering videogames and toys to children?s hospitals all over the world now. I don?t think there?s any better response to Jack?s insane ramblings than that. Maybe Jack would like to donate his 10 grand to Child?s Play, that could buy a lot of Game Boys.
quote:My email sig had my phone number in it. Jack actually just called and screamed at me for a couple minutes. He said if I email him again I will ?regret it?. What a violent man.

I've just read his game proposal and, goodness me, does he have a huge chip on his shoulder or what?! Who wants to waste development time and money (even for a small charitable cause) just to satisfy his rather disturbing contempt for Take 2, Grand Theft Auto, and the games industry as a whole (which you obviously see from his proposal). No one is going to take this up because doing this proposal is akin to siding with his warped argument.

I think this says a lot more about his psychological state than violence in games, to be honest. Very disturbing.

If you havn't heared of jack Thompson before, here's a good place to start: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_%28attorney%29[/url]

I dont know if it it's really worth caring about anything he says, though he might eventually have an impact on american politicians, in which case it his attacks might have roll over effects on the games industry gloably.

But if not, then it's just fun to read his stupid comments, obvious fabrications, and insults to those who point out his errors.

His somewhat confused point seems to be that the games industry doesn't really believe that their games are blameless for violence. As such he feels that the industry would be 'too scared' to make a game in which they themselves were the targets because it would make them targets.

I know it's not well thought out really, but I just don't understand. His protagonist even if the game were made would be an endorsement of the "guns don't kill people" stance taken by the game industry in the first place. The father is clearly not "trained on murder" by any game - he's just a caricature of vengeance being violent in his own right.

A much better story would be adapting Ben Elton's book "Popcorn" (highly recommended) into a game.

How about this one, McDrew?

"Topical Issue Lawyer"

The game plays a bit like Sentinel; the object being to remain on the highest moral high-ground (hold down the fire button to charge up your 'spin'). The higher you climb, the more access you gain to large veal dinners, and you gain energy by ambulance-chasing.

Haha when will people learn to stop feeding the trolls.

Jack Thompson is nobody special. People like him have been around for centuries. Seriously. And I'm not referring to dribbling morons.
For every new major medium, there are super conservatives who claim that their introduction will lead to the downfall of society. TV, Radio and Film all had their critics. People saying that they destroy the fabric of society. Hell, you can go back to the printing press - even the invention of writing; these were opposed strongly for the effects they would have on society.

The fact is, these conservatives are under the assumption that people are stupid and will be controlled by these new forms of media. Despite evidence otherwise, people aren't stupid. They accept TV, radio and video games as something seperate from reality. No matter how realistic the graphics get, people will distinguish between a game and reality. (Can argue the whole 'Matrix' dealie, but thats beside the point.) Media can influence people, but it doesn't control them.

You'll find that the nutters that go around killing people don't do so because they did it in Grand Theft Auto. They did it because they are fucking lunatics who have a predisposition to that kind of behaviour. How many millions of gamers are there for every one who has acted in an anti-social manner?

Jack Thompson is merely a bottomfeeder, leeching off a debate that is bigger than his simple intelligence.

/rant

i wonder if you could make a game like that fun, FLCL style?

...wheres the love....

that about sums up everything. XD

Looks like a few more people are getting a little disturbed of the froth coming from Thompsons mouth: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12259

Netcartoon:

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Jack_Thompson.jpg[/img]

Sorceror Bob: your right, and that's why most people dont care. But if organisatons like the ESRB (US ratings board) and other industry related organisation dont continue working thier counter arguments then his, and those of people of simular oppinion, could have serious effects. for instance California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger recently [url="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6777"]signed into law[/url] a bill requiring all games containing violent content to be labled so and be sold only to adults, with heavy fines for both the retailer if they sell them to a minor, and the developer/publisher is they miss-rate their game. the problem is the ratings are not defined by the ESRB (as would make sence), and are based on vauge and obsucre criteria. Further more another company has now poped up saying they want to provide the ratings for the games (for a fee of course). The point being some people are treating games far more serisouly than other forms of media, and are even refusing to co-operate with the self-regulation of the American industry (with some even trying to profit from it). Aparently they see a 3rd party or governmental ratings system better than one run by industry experts. And as you can see - it's having an affect.

The Bill is being challanged, as are simular ones in other US states. There is also a lot of games related legistation in other countires, like leagal limits on how long you can play an MMO for in China, and others cant think of off-hand, but read Gamasutra, most things end up on there.

If only Gamasutra had an RSS feed... [:(]

Note that Jack's an anti-violence-in-entertainment (ie: Football? Pro Wrestling?) advocate, not just Games.

you can now subscribe to a newsletter that sends out all the news each day, or the best news each week, as well as a bunch of area specific ones aswell. but i check the site everyday anyway.

latst news, a mod team has [url="http://hellfish.gtajunkies.com/Story.html"]made his game[/url], and he has refused to donate the money saying the proposal was [url="http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000743063662/"]satire[/url]. So the [url="http://www.penny-arcade.com/"]Peny Arcade[/url] guys have made the donation in his name.

After all the commotion and especially the responses from Jack Thompson recently, there shouldn't be anyone around who hasn't figured out that he's a grade one lunatic. I know a lot of people are saying that the situation is only worsened when the press and media give him more coverage on his antics, but it seems this guy has some form of power (persuasive or otherwise) to make changes in the industry in the US, so perhaps shooting him down and revealing what a crackpot he really is is the only solution. I just pray that we don't have some crazy evangelist like him around here.

The problem here is that the responsible approach doesn't get the headlines. It's the same strategy as is used by Goverments and big business worldwide - one big announcement that hits the front page, followed some days later by a smaller correction or watering down that hits page 47 of the business section.

It's starting to be the way it works - something attention grabbing even if it's wrong, then later a 'correction'.

ie: "Saddam can launch WMDs within 20min" followed by "Well, he was an evil guy anyway."

There's a reason why large chunks of the general populace still think that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were carried out by Iraq. Unfortunately the most media savvy are often the fruitcakes of society with an axe to grind such as Jack.

It would be really nice if we could play the game too...

The plot thickens! Jack Thompson Calls Cops on Penny-Arcade [url]http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/05/10/18/1516223.shtml?tid=123&tid=153&tid=…]
[url]http://www.penny-arcade.com/[/url]

thompsons tried to call the cops on some people before, because they made a AIM icon where he gets hit in the head with an XBOX.... His appeals to the police and his interesting factual exclusions are all too obvious in these letters. Good on Penny Arcade for donating the money

Just to blow my own trumpet! :P

From Penny Arcade quote:Jack is not special. He is not a unique snow flake as they say. He is just the latest vocal opponent of whatever is "corrupting" our youth at the moment. When my dad was growing up it was rock and roll devil music. Then it was comic books then movies and rap music. Today it?s videogames. If we were to succeed in getting Jack blacklisted from the major news outlets someone else would simply take his place. Imagine him as an actor playing a part in a play. The point is that Jack Thompson is not important. If he were to be fired a new actor would simply take up the role. The same lines would still be delivered in the same way and the same audience would pay to see it. We are actually fortunate that the current actor is so impotent in his role. Imagine what might happen if some charming, efficacious attorney took his place. The more I consider it the more I think we may be lucky to have Jack playing the part of the alarmist. The alternative might be someone who is actually capable.

Thats what I said!!

Sorceror Bob said:
quote:The fact is, these conservatives are under the assumption that people are stupid and will be controlled by these new forms of media. Despite evidence otherwise, people aren't stupid. They accept TV, radio and video games as something seperate from reality. No matter how realistic the graphics get, people will distinguish between a game and reality. (Can argue the whole 'Matrix' dealie, but thats beside the point.) Media can influence people, but it doesn't control them.

I agree with your motivations, however, I offer the following refinements. Any media that takes the form of something clearly fictional or escapist, such as film and video games, will not be taken seriously by virtually anybody, because as stated, people generally aren't that stupid. As a result, Jack Thompson's arguments based on games training and desensitising players to kill are nonsense.

That being said, I believe that in general, people are highly suggestible, and I would claim that this is unrelated to stupidity. The real problem of media "control" exists in media that is falsely presented as objective, for example, the commercial news, which is exactly what Jack Thompson uses to spread his ignorant propaganda. The fact that so many people are willing to believe him despite his almost total lack of coherent arguments leads me to the conclusion that media can indeed "control" people, but, ironically, the only kind of media that is really effective at controlling people is the only kind that Jack Thompson himself uses.

The influence vs. control argument is however, largely debatable. Here's the way I see it: Some people, like myself and the people on this board, are more likely to be merely influenced by the media, that is, to neither believe unconditionally nor reject entirely the arguments that are presented until we have come to our own conclusions. I've met too many people however, who simply believe the commerical news unconditionally - not just adopt new opinions but entirely disregard their existing ones in order to do so. I have absolutely no doubt that [url="http://todaytonight.com.au"]purveyors[/url] of pseudo-objective media commercially exploit this characteristic.

My conclusions here are pretty clear: If there is any such thing as media control, the people behind it are Jack Thompson, not Rockstar.

Good post TheBigJ!

I agree entirely! I find the implied trust given to news media rather amusing. One of the reasons I view it with such scepticism. I believe this is largely because it is passive. It doesn't require any involvement on the part of the viewer. Just a spectatorship.

We internet savvy people are more prone to scepticism, due to the fact that we can actively engage in the media.(like what we're doing now.)

In closing. Jack Thompson fellates goats.

quote:I believe this is largely because it is passive. It doesn't require any involvement on the part of the viewer. Just a spectatorship.
Or a dictatorship.

quote:We internet savvy people are more prone to scepticism, due to the fact that we can actively engage in the media.(like what we're doing now.)
Yep. The intertron is probably mankind's greatest leap towards achieving freedom of independant thought (although I believe, we have many leaps to go).

quote:In closing. Jack Thompson fellates goats.
Most likely.

Fortunately the era of mass media is coming to an end, fragmenting and giving way to new active media where morons like Thompson have less impact then ever before.

It?s an interesting topic you guys have raised. I think there?s a very interesting social transformation taking place with modern communications and the outcome of this change is still largely unknown. The effect of advancing communications technology on society has always been badly underestimated, and who can really say what the death of distance and active instead of passive media will have on society? Not only should it lead to the freedom of independent thought and the exchanging of ideas, but also a move towards a new economy, a creative economy.

And in this new economy the simpleton puppets like Thompson will be left out in the cold tormenting their goats.

Well, the printing press saw a similar shift from passive to active communications, and heralded many of the changes you've mentioned Palantir. :)

It's arguably on a different scale, but there is still a huge gap between people who have access to the technology, and those who don't.
That said, the largest contribution of new interactive medias is on a global scale rather than local. I don't actually believe the internet has actually added anything. It's simply made the whole process more efficient and accessible.

We also have to avoid falling into the trap of believing what we read on the internet. No media is ever purely objective! Just because it can be interactive doesn't mean it is a valid source. Media bias is simply a part of news.

People like Jack Thompson never truly dissapear, in 50 years we'll probably have Jack Thompson Jr launching a narrow minded attack on holo-shoot em ups.

quote:We also have to avoid falling into the trap of believing what we read on the internet. No media is ever purely objective! Just because it can be interactive doesn't mean it is a valid source.
Yes, I absolutely agree. I would say that the arguments for the internet being a step forward in objectivity has nothing to do with the merits, motivations or agendas of those who write its content. Much of the information out on the web deserves little credit in the objectivity stakes. The point is, the alternative view is always a mere three-second google search away. That's it. Incomprehensible volumes of knowledge aquired by humans of all societies from all cultures, all readily available to anybody who knows how to work Google.

Okay, maybe the full effect has not yet been invoked, but in another few generations or so, when governments have given up trying to control and regulate the internet (I'm being optimistic), perhaps people will have, on a mainstream level, abandoned the very idea that any single instance of media can be objective; the idea that it is even possible that the work of one author, regardless of chosen medium, will ever line up with any "absolute" or "objective" truth. If that idea goes out the window, so does Jack Thompson's power (which is [url="http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051019-5458.html"]waning[/url], anyway).

One extra note:
quote:People like Jack Thompson never truly dissapear, in 50 years we'll probably have Jack Thompson Jr launching a narrow minded attack on holo-shoot em ups.
This will always be the case, however, I think that as time goes forward, society will have increasingly less power to grant these individuals.

Okay, rant officially over.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

If only Gamasutra had an RSS feed... [:(]

It does now! Woo!

http://www.gamasutra.com/rss/

If anyone's interested, [url="http://www.gameshout.com/news/102005/article1392.htm"]Gameshout has an interview with Jack[/url] on their radio program that you can download. It's interesting, but I wish that the interviewee and other guests had some more challenging questions and counter arguments.

Yeah, I heard that interview and felt the same way. Counter-arguments were largely speculative and/or anecdotal, and to my frustration, they let him get away with too many wild accusations without requesting supporting arguments.

penny arcade arent getting arrested: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136737.html
hands up whose suprised?

Great read, nicely done [:)] I'm still trying to figure out who's who, or which scenarios hypothetical or not [:D]

Pros: no need to buy a $20,000 PS2 dev kit to test your demos? [;)]

Yep, mod chipping is still legal in Australia. Sony just lost another court case.

I've never done homebrew PS2, but I gather it's possible to fool a PS2 into running unsigned code via a hack involving any PS1 game. I have no idea of details (and I don't want to know). Point is afaik you don't have to modchip a PS2 to do homebrew.

Plaing imported games I think is a definate pro. If you actually have the desire. If you don't want to or don't know about games you might import there's no point. But if English is your second language or you know of releases that are either not released here or impossible to find (there's a bundle on the Gamecube) then a mod chip might be a handy thing to have.

Right...so has anyone here actually 'chipped' their console? Either for homebrew or playing import games or running Linux or whatever. [;)]

I have the chip. I have the tools. I damaged my PS2 just *opening* it, let alone actually soldering 17 wires. I do not yet have the guts :(

with Jackson on board, it's sure to have some quality to it, though how much you can get from a cliche space marine in a rediculious suit i don't know...

Also on the bungie site, so pretty solidly confirmed.

http://www.bungie.net/News/TopStory.aspx?story=biggorilla&p=4955829

Yeah i heard about this, i mean yeah it is big guy in big suit but there is atleast a decent story to the Halo mythos and with WETA and jackson on board it could easily translate into a great movie.

sorry if i sound cynical but i found Halo to be nothing but greatly overhyped stock-stnadard FPS

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

sorry if i sound cynical but i found Halo to be nothing but greatly overhyped stock-stnadard FPS

I seccond that!

For a hugely popular game.. theres not really alot to it that should make it any more better then most FPS.

It's a fun game to play... but it's not what the hype tells us it is.

It's an FPS that works on a console better than on a PC. That's still rare IMHO.

This post sort of jumped up and down at me when I read it:

http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/08/read_the_tealea.html

Jackson doing Halo with Weta on effects filmed in exotic locations throughout New Zealand? Cool!

I just hope Fran can come up with a worthwhile script that stands above the average game to movie flop. But at the very least we know Jackson?s the right man for some cool action sequences.

Hmmm, Lord of the Rings in space? Oh wait, that?s Star Wars?

A good script would be nice, but considering the sort of "porn" type scripts that most games have now I am sure that anything the movie script has will beat the game scripts ;)

yeah you can bet cortex or cortes or whatever her name is will be far to sexually aroused for an AI program, that's the way it works in hollywood and games - and especially in game/movie cross-overs. that's probably not what you meant by "porn type scripts" but think about it: resident evil, tomb raider, mortal kombat - the women weren't on screen for their acting ability, and their personalities and dialog had little to do with character or plot development.

on another note: lets not forget, jackson is only producing - not directing.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

sorry if i sound cynical but i found Halo to be nothing but greatly overhyped stock-stnadard FPS

metroid fan boy [:0][;)]

indeed, but that dosnt change the validity of my comment [:p]

He's done Lord of the Rings, and is attached to Neo Evangelion and now Halo 2. Tell me he's not a geek at heart. [:D]

He's the worlds biggest geek Souri! [8D]

With him as our leader, we will rule over all! =D

Lots of things i'd change re-arrange (of course) but the only thing i feel inclined to comment on is Half-Life 2, which is soooooo overrated imo (from a gameplay point of view, production values wise it deserves the spot).

three words - LOL

I sold my copy of Sims2 to a Uni girl who loved the games. I hated it mainly because you have to be good. You cant create a single mum with a child that has six heads and grows up to become a train robber. You eat, sleep, go to work...hang on - I CAN DO THAT NOW! I guess I am trying to say that for me, a game is ment to be an experience that takes you out of your day-to-day life. Something that lets you become a race car driver, an LA gangbanger, a plumber with a mushroom problem, a leet skater or a space marine is fantastic because its an escape from cooking, eating, sleeping.

A good friend of mine once said when I asked him what he thought of the Sims: "I have never considered playing games a waste of time until I played The Sims, I was cooking, eating and sleeping in the game when I could have been doing those things myself"

That my 2 cents anyway. I agree that everyone is different and we all like different games - The Sims isnt for me...

Top 50 games list - that would be very difficult to compile, My list would without a doubt contain more rpg's.

yeah iignore these lists, peoples oppinions are to personal to compile a difinitve list like this. if it read: "my top 50 games" then fine, but you can't say "THE top 50" and expect to speak for everyone. something like that would have to be compiled by votes or sales figures - and even then it woulnd it speak for everyone and probably still be innacurate.

We all know about opinions.... and everyone has one ;)

I do agree that lists like this are opinion, but I was impressed to see that the list
a) spanned not just current gen consoles
b) included some of the more "alternative" games
c) was still willing to list some of the more "kiddie" games

Pity Sam n Max only got a spot so low. That was a truly fantasic and hilarious game :-)

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

b) included some of the more "alternative" games
c) was still willing to list some of the more "kiddie" games

Pffft! It didn't even include Karamari Damacy!?

pb

Needless to say Thief/SS2 etc should be on the list. But i didn't expect em to be.
And this comment is kind of tangential but look at the film world where Kubrick never won an oscar but crap like 'A Beautiful Mind' wins best picture. hahaha.

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

c) was still willing to list some of the more "kiddie" games

i was talking with a few friends who were furious counter strike was at 50 under games like "whatever that super monkey ball thing is" ;)
still, everyones got their own list

quote:Originally posted by pb

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

b) included some of the more "alternative" games
c) was still willing to list some of the more "kiddie" games

Pffft! It didn't even include Karamari Damacy!?

pb

It had Ico, Rez, and PaRappa the Rapper. Ico was such a beautiful game.

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

Pity Sam n Max only got a spot so low. That was a truly fantasic and hilarious game :-)

Its great that after all this time, adventure classics like sam n max and grim fandango still make it in peoples lists, just goes to show.
And about Sam n Max, it was great, but Day of the tentacle was better, and Monkey Island 1/2 even better! [;)] but hey, its down to personal taste, hell i still like zac mackracken and the alien mindbenders [:I]

... I SEE NO DARK CLOUD OR DARK CRONICULE!!!

<.< seriously that was an excellent set of games. It had a lot to do and Dark Chronicle clocked up 87 hours for me and I didn?t even do everything I could of in it.

It wasn't a popular game. But I know for a fact that people are now willing to pay $200 for the original dark cloud.

^^ok. Maybe not top 50 of all time. But better then some described above.

quote:
Pffft! It didn't even include Karamari Damacy!?

What's a bet that the guys who made that list just went, "...Katamari what...?" Hyper magazine had a Best 50 games list a couple of issues ago but did the smart/lazy thing of not ranking them; just a list of their fave 50 games. Which did include Katamari Damacy and a few other import titles that we've never even seen thanks to stupid regional coding and distribution.

Looked to me more like the best 50 designed games of all time, because Sims 2, while it is really mundane spouts a very good and addictive game design. So perhaps thats why it was at the top of the list.

I must say I'm sad to not see dark chornicle up there. I clocked 120 hours on that. It was a very fun game. Only now the disk is scratched and we can't replay it again without having to skip all the cutscenes. :(

It'll be a cold day in hell before Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time is in my top 50. The puzzle elements were nice, but the fights were incredibly repetitive and mind numbing, especially when the game respawns the enemy a multitude of times in front of your eyes. My nephew is a pretty patient and hardened gamer, but when I saw him give up after retrying over seven times to get past this enemy respawning hell hole, I knew this wasn't the game for me. [:D]

I have no respect for a "Top 50" list that does not contain System Shock!

I have no respect for any list, games or not, that doesn't contain Chrono Trigger and a Donkey Kong Country game! [:(!]

I am barely one one-hundredth the way through Chrono Trigger and it is possibly the best game I have ever played! BAH! Top 50 my bunghole! [:p]

Do you really think your bunghole is a top 50 contender?

I'm not even going to comment about that last post.

Anyway, I'm glad Goldeneye/Zelda:OOT did so well, because they were so well crafted for their day.
Aww ... poor diddums for the Doom 3 fanbois. No a mention, and it should remain that way too.

For all the games that have been released, it would be incredibly hard to knuckle down an absolute Top 100 best games ever created, just as hard (harder because of the longer history) as the Top 100 best films ever done.

mcdrewski [:D]

Anyway, as far as the FPS games go, I'd rather see a Tribes game on the list then any of the others listed.

And there was a serious lack of RPG's!

And personally I thought PoP:sands of time was quite a fun journey..

And if we are going back to the old Sega days, I want Wonder Boy on the list.

Hey guys, enjoyed your comments on my article. Thanks for the feedback.

One quick comment - I would have loved to include Katamari, but felt I couldn't seeing it still hasn't had a local release. It'd be fine for a games magazine feature, but not a mainstream newspaper. And sorry to the Looking Glass fans: the likes of Thief and System Shock were on my shortlist but just missed out.

Cheers,

Jason

I'm sure everyone agrees that you did a great job on the list - I was amazed at the incredible wide variety of great games in there. And I would pretty much agree with most of the titles in that list being there (although I personally would've replaced Counterstrike with Enemy Territory. [;)]). I'm doubly glad that Tetris made the list.

pfft...FF7 rank 14..gotta be kidding me. And where are the games that started it all.. eg. Another world. I would have like to see dungeon keeper in there too, but maybe thats personal.

pop

gotta say diablo 2 would be in mine, many many hours of playing this when it first came out

Wow. Bold idea.

I think it'd be a fantastic resource for people trying to get into the industry, but The studio that did it would have to be supremely confident in it's work, and that it's game could be unique and stand on it's own without any 'first to market' or 'bombshell' features.

You might also find that the sheer number of feature requests you have to reject will alienate the more precious members of your audience who feel slighted. Some people find it hard to take a "no".

Mcdrewski: So quick! [:)]

Why do you think that the studio who does it needs to be supremely confident in their work ? or that the game be so unique and whatnot?

And I'm not so much talking about having the development open to suggestions by the masses, and building a game for them, as quite correctly it'd be impossible to satisy everyones needs, but rather exposing the methods of creation that are almost always hidden.

Just how do you go about making a paper doll system for equiping your characters with individual items of armour ?

How do you balance out the amount of EXP rewarded to the player for defeating enemies?

How do we determine how far apart should the save points be to make it challenging, but not a long hard slog.

Should their be save points in the game ?

Alot of it would be really basic information, and some questions might well be aimed directly at the public as a yes/no.

The core elements or essence of the game - should be the developers own in order to make it unique to them, but the variables, and individual aspects right on the highest level, might benefit from being public poles and oppinions - and perhaps rather than just saying " Its in the game! " provide some kind of feedback about how you went about implementing it - rather than keeping all the nitty gritty hidden and 'TOP SECRET'

I agree with helping the next generation - I think thats essentially the core of the idea - to give the next generation a resource with which they can call upon to hopefully avoid the many mistakes of the others that have gone before them.

Id love to see it but i can also forsee a few issues, which youve touched on. What was a really good solution was when Bungie hired a film crew to cover the entire process of making Halo 2 then released the DVD in the special edition package. It was a well documented experience and everyone loves a video as apposed to reading right? its sad in a way but true. Also it meant that this all went out after the game was over so no spoilers or any other troubles. The obvious problem is though, not everyones on a bungie budget that hires film crews. Still, one of the best insights ive seen to date

quote:Originally posted by HazarD

...

Its an interesting thought, and could be beneficial to the end product. But I personally don't think it would be practical from a commercial point of view if you are talking about your average console game or PC product. Here are a few thoughts as to why assuming that is the kind of development you are talking about

- exposing the public to your game means you are exposing competitors to your game who may cherry pick your best features and content and get them to market first.

- exposing the public to detailed progress reports exposes them to corners you might be cutting or hard decisions you are making. If a certain feature is cut in front of everyone it may generate a negative impression. If they never knew it was there in the first place, then not such an issue.

- exposing the public to your general progress exposes them to your levels of effort which, while they may be considerable, will never live up to expectations of a public who wants you working 24/7 until the week before the game hits the shelves.

- the general public makes for 'good' consumers but for bad game designers. Seriously, the average game fan just does not think things through, not understanding what they actually want, what is practical, or what would drive good gameplay.

- no publisher (or publishing contract) would allow that level of openess.

For the most part, a game developer should be able to get good ideas and feedback based on engaging with gamers on company or public gaming forums, by approaching key individuals, and through extensive focus testing.

For a development business model outside the norm though, perhaps worthy of exploration.

quote:
Why do you think that the studio who does it needs to be supremely confident in their work ? or that the game be so unique and whatnot?

Confident, because I'd be surprised if any project of size was ever completed without a few fairly significant hurdles that require rethinking/rebuilding/etc. From the inside it's a necessary evil we strive to avoid, but from the outside it smells like incompetence.

The uniqueness question important since if you're solving all the problems and posting them online, then it's not unthinkable that a competitor could be first to market before you with what's effectively your own game. Not a big risk for many games, sure, but things can get cut-throat out there where there's a buck to be made.

Of course, if you ever have to make a design decision based on details of underlying technology like an NDA-bound commercial engine might also prove to be touchy.

Sounds fantastic, but because of the above, striking a balance between generalisations and details would be the challenge. Perhaps something as simple as a blog like [url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com"]Joel Spolsky does for software dev[/url] might be the sort of balance you're talking about.

Mario: Thanks so much for your thoughts on the topic - very valid points there, valuable [:)]

Mcdrewski: I agree completely - thanks for your thoughts on things so far!

Moony: Great idea! though we wouldnt need an entire film crew to record something - a handy cam will do, give it a more Blair Witch effect [;)]

After gathering thoughts - and re-reading what ive written, perhaps I didnt give enough examples about what i thikn should be revealed and what should still be kept 'trade secret'.

Basically the kind of information wouldnt really be valuable to the public, as Mario mentioned the average gamer isnt going to care why the save points are located in strategic positions to minimise frustration, only that they are there !!

But I think it might be valuable for the next generation of game developers even as a " Heres how we did it, take it, rework it and make it better! "

Using the save game example again. Here is what I see today on most developers forum's:

POLL QUESTION: Do you think we should have save points in our game? YES/NO

Now thats a smart approach, but, people respond willy nilly, and a bit of discussion goes on - the save points are implemented ( for the sake of this example ) and thats it, onto the next yes / no. What I'm suggesting is a small (blog perhaps - thanks Mcdrewski) writeup on how the right length between save points was determined, why its important to have that balance, and perhaps some mistakes that were made.

Because we are a small team, I think this would be alot easier to manage. I guess the other major factor is, we have nothing to hide. Of course their will be mistakes, theres almost zero chance of getting around that, but we dont fear mistakes, or being wrong, or even having someone who knows next to nothing about games or game development, point out something thats would make things better.

I guess focus testing would clear up alot of those things - but that still doesnt make any game development knowledge public, which is the point of my thoughts.

Also we wont be hampered by publishers or demands of investors and whatnot, so we feel like this might be a good opportunity to do some exploration.

More thoughts and oppinions ?

Pro:

By making these technologies and methodologies widely available, this could lead to more successful projects with higher levels of quality in the games industry.

Con:

One of the reasons game development staff are paid decent wages is because their skills are in demand. If the process of aquiring these skills is made available to everyone then there is a risk these jobs may be worth less.

Wifflecube: Really interesting...thanks for your thoughts [:)]

Maybe the people who have nestled nicely into a 'developers niche' will be more inclined to propel themselves forward in learning more about their trade and where its going, before the (former) 'unworthy masses' surpass them in skills picked up from the internet? [:O]

I'll just add another thought as a cautionary note -

You need to be very careful to be aware of who you are getting feedback from and who your actual target market is.

For example, in the case of Sidhe Interactive we have been engaging with the online Rugby League fan community for a couple of years. We get great feedback and ideas, but its always important to remember that the people who are online and proactive enough to engage with the developers are typically the hardcore gamers. We have 2,000 active members on our company forums, and that represents less than 1% of our actual customer base for that game.

These gamers will typically be the ones pushing for advanced features, harder gameplay, less training and easy levels, more "simulation and less "arcade", and things that add only minutely to the gameplay but require a mammoth development effort. Their feedback is from one extreme end of what is likely to be a much larger audience. Them are some real gems of ideas and infomration in there, but its easy to be mislead if you aren't careful.

So just make sure when you are engaging in that sort of conversation with (potential) consumers remember to filter their feedback appropriately, and remember there are a bunch of other gamers who you aren't talking to.

Hope that helps :)

How very communist!

I always like your ideas Troy. As Drew says, very bold.

Though I can see your way wracked with pain, I think it would be an interesting experiment, and sounds like the Kalescent waytm.

You would have no qualms for example, about releasing the details of your business model as you make your money using your skills, not your idea. Even as competition rises, your skills will always be in demand. Add to this the fact that you transfer the bulk of your outsourcing fees to whoever did the work, and it becomes much more lucrative to join your ranks than to compete.

"Lets all get rich and famous together."

I do agree with Wiffles post somewhat... we earn what we earn because our skills are in high demand. A lot of people would be made VERY uncomfortable when their "corporate jewels" are exposed and they're no longer considered specially skilled. What is an IT degree worth these days now that every man and his dog have three?

You could argue that this encourages the cream to rise to the top, and you'd be right.

If your methods become accepted practices, then you may also become the authority on the subject (to your benifit, as well as that of the greater community).

One danger you may face as Drew mentioned is looking the fool when you make blatant errors (as you always do), which old hands will see coming. I'd also be reluctant to share milestone dates et cetera, as these never work out as planned.

You may distance this endeavor from your outsourcing work to ensure that your professional reputation doesn't take a hit if you fail to deliver on your own project.

I've had terrible troubles coordinating projects with a distributed team, which I could go into at length (and might do later on). I don't believe it's a great way to get things done, and you'll lose your hair and some years off your life keeping those wheels turning. That said, plenty of people do make it work.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about people using your ideas and running your product out of business. People may take bits and pieces of your ideas and processes (which is the goal of this after all), but would have to match and exceed your work level to make a carbon copy. That said, a copy is never as good as the original which has been built by the people who came up with the good ideas (something is always lost in the translation).

Personally, I think detailing your PROCESSES will be infintely more useful than talking about the nuts and bolts. Sharing a great method for managing a portion of this project would be much more useful than knowing that a sucessful hit in the game is a result of a "D6+strength+(-4 against tree monsters)".

I'll watch this one closely.

Scott.

Just a quick note, Just Add Monsters (come ninja theory) where doing a good dev diary of their next-gen title heavenly sword in edge magazine -- go to http://www.ninjatheory.com to check out the ones posted online under the 'features' section. It's probably the closest I've really seen in this vein. Along with the diary, they released their pitch video they used to secure funding, and have released a few work in progress shots along the way. It's still not to the extent of openness we're talking about here, but the fact they're also very willing to talk about stuff in general one-on-one is cool.

Mario: Again thanks alot for that comment [:)] - very true I'd definately have to keep that in check, and yes its definately all helping give a clearer picture.

rezn0r: Cheers for the encouragement! Lots of valid points in there, a few give me more incentive to simply jump in! The 'lets all get rich and famous together' notion is both jovial and relative!!

I also agree that for many companies this idea would be uncomfortable, as the more complex the project the more scope the 'openess' really has, and yes many would probably contain skeletons that are better locked in the closet.

As far as milestone data goes and whatnot - I have to agree with you on that one.

But looking the fool is a fact of life, and we are the type of people to get up, dust off and have a laugh at ourselves, but learn from it, rather than quickly hop up and look around, do our darndest to make sure nobody ever knows what really happened and while hastily focusing on the cover up, forget why the problem happened in the first place. ( experience talking here [:I] )

So its to be expected that there will be some errors - although at the same time I can understand what you mean with regards to the professional side of the studio and whatnot. Good point there.

Sorry to hear your projects didnt go as smoothly as planned with distributed team members etc, I wont say for a second it was easy, but like most things, some repetition to iron out all the kinks will go along way.

Detailing processes is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about also not so much of the nitty gritty but the 'hows' followed by the 'whys' the trick is like many have mentioned is finding that balance between how open to be.

Definately food for thought - thanks for your comments [:)]

JI: That article along with a few others + some views of certain game designers have ultimately been the fuel to these thoughts about a somewhat open development. Really good reading, and my personal oppinion is that the more of these we have, the better off in industry is, whether it be from a gigantic company making hit after hit or a small indy guy like ourselves.

Alot to consider, keep it coming [:)]

HazarD, what you are talking about to me seems a bit like the philosophies that the the open source movement embrace. Have a read of http://opensource.org/advocacy/faq.php

The Open Source Initiative are a lot less rabid than the GNU people.

quote:Originally posted by Mario


its always important to remember that the people who are online and proactive enough to engage with the developers are typically the hardcore gamers. We have 2,000 active members on our company forums, and that represents less than 1% of our actual customer base for that game.

Very true... I read an interesting report from Microsoft a few years ago which was the result of quite an extensive study into their target market for various games, and as such they design their games accordingly.

One aspect concerning sporting games was to design a game to suit somebody who is vaguely interested in a particular sport... a "fringe" fan so-to-speak, the type of person who will sometimes watch the sport on TV, but typically won't go out of their way to attend a live match... according to the report, this is where the market is.

How about a Game Development Mock-u-mentary? Sort of do a comedy/documentary showing the making of a game in a very stereotypical studio. I'm sure some people here would be able to share some real life war stories that could form the base of the script. You could actually film the damn thing and make a decent movie out of it? Anyways, that's just an idea that popped into my head.

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

How about a Game Development Mock-u-mentary? Sort of do a comedy/documentary showing the making of a game in a very stereotypical studio. I'm sure some people here would be able to share some real life war stories that could form the base of the script. You could actually film the damn thing and make a decent movie out of it? Anyways, that's just an idea that popped into my head.

Heh, I saw a treatment a few years back for a short comedy TV series about a fledgling game studio trying to get off the ground.

Never got the green light as far as I know.

I?m going to put my ?disclaimer? forward right off the bat of this post, and say that I was too buggered from a marathon gaming session of ?Knights of the Old Republic 2? on the XBOX to really read this thread properly. So apologizes in advance for having gone off track with the post, but this is what I think:

It has been more or less said the same way in numerous places, one of which is a notorious sci-fi / action flick, but here goes: ?Knowing the path is not the same as walking the path.? Or something like that.

Basically what I mean is, that sure, you could document all these processes or ?concepts,? but, knowledge is only as useful to you as far as you know how to make use of it, and how much talent you show in using it. So, an average developer, given the ?holy-grail? of AAA commercial game development, the oracle of success, will still only churn out average / mediocre titles. On the other hand a talented developer, of which they only comprise a very small percentage of the development community, given this knowledge, this power, this freedom? will create works of great crafted art, that each will be gold for them and for everyone else ? even the consumers / gamers. Now, give such life-path changing knowledge, to a poor-wretch of a developer, a complete utter cretin of a developer, they will still only produce time-wasting piles of steaming crap ? that no one buys (much of), and everyone ends up forgetting.

They simply do not ?understand? the concepts, do not know how to ?implement? the concepts due to lack of experience, nor do they comprehend why the concepts are ?needed.? Somewhere, out there, you have some guy who honestly thinks that a GUI for a FPS is a waste of time and that it could all be better done with a command-prompt ? and no amount you confronting them with the truth is going to change their mind, period!

It in a similar fashion, is why I don?t see much worth in game development ?academia,? in that they lack the practical experience to really know what the hell they are talking about and how to go about it ? hence the rubbish that comes out of them for the most part ;). Practical real-world experience adds depth of meaning to the theory that you learn, and the experiences of others you might read about, because you truly understand where they are coming from, and why it is all so important and how to go about making use of it.

www.msy.com.au are pretty damn good for hardware prices.

yeh, nice prices, and a store right need me too!

www.umart.com.au for the win

yeah u-mart is great, that's where i'll be buying most things from. what i need though is links to benchmarks or reviews of the hardware so i can figure out what to buy in the firstplace.

[url="http://bigkid.com.au/2005/02/26/buyer-beware/"]BigKid has a post[/url] about what to watch out for from such bargain basement stores. ie: "Returned Goods attract a 10% restocking fee".

Oops, sorry. I didn't read your post correctly. Some good places to find about that stuff would be [url="http://www.tomshardware.com/index.html"]Tom's Hardware[/url] and [url="http://www.anandtech.com"]Anandtech[/url].

And [url="http://www.dansdata.com"]Dan's Data[/url] - Dan Rutter's a legend on teh internets.

For what it's worth I really like Edge magazine. PC Powerplay is getting old....

I used to read Atomic: [url]http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/[/url] which is a high end computer power type mag, with an obvious bias to FPS games (and strongly 'standard' (i.e. generic) FPS's at that). I now read The Escapist: [url]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/[/url], which is a weekly online mag which has now begun hosting adds (ufortunate in a way, but it's a great read so i'm happy to see it support adds to continue).

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

I'm considering the idea of promoting my business while the iron is hot so to speak, and thought a good way of doing this might be to run an article/interview in a game magazine about what we do and our latest game project.

Who is your intended audience? Consumers, publishers, or other developers?

Mainly other developers but also publishers.

Thanks Guy's, Edge it is :)

Just to add - if you would like to target an international audience maybe look at the game dev magazine that CMP does. That was the mag that IGDA use to give free with memberships and I think CMP will give any game dev in the US a subscription for free.

Thanks Jacana, I haven't seen that mag in years and didn't think of it, definitely a good idea :)

You can contact me, I am the Editor at GameBiz Australia. www.gamebiz.com.au

GameBiz is Australia's largest online publication covering the games industry each month we publish over 240 game industry related articles.

Interesting handheld, if a bit pricy coming close to $300 AUD ? that is for an ?indie? platform. I?d considering buying one in the future if I new that I could play the whole library of Atari Lynx games through an emulator on the thing, but, part of that portfolio is being released on the PSP from Midway ? like Rampart and Rampage. And someone could conceivably port the emulator across to the PSP via homebrew, and in that sense you would be able to play all the Lynx games via the PSP ? the games and emulator come to 20mbs. Though I am not sure that Midway would be at all happy with that, that is if someone goes to the trouble of porting the emulator across, which is a big if as it is the same for this handheld ? the GP2X ? though, there is a Linux version of the emulator, perhaps it wouldn?t take much to have it work on the platform, so that you could bind the buttons to play the games with.

As for indie developers, the last handheld this company released sold around 30,000 units, which isn?t exactly a large market share, and who knows whether this new handheld will sell the same, more or perhaps less ? with stiff competition in the marketplace from the PSP and DS. Though, perhaps if you are an indie and your titles are released via the PC ? Windows and Linux ? then porting a version for this platform which is essentially Linux based may see worthwhile sales.

very interesting.... wonder if it'll be like using two controllers like you could on golden eye..

the left hand thing there is a plug in apparently, and other plugins will be available.

Keynote: http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/09/omfg_revolution.html

I love it.

[url="http://media.cube.ign.com/articles/651/651334/vids_1.html"]Video promo of the controller[/url] showing it's potential for different types of games (albeit without any game footage)

And yeh, imagine Zelda with that controller. Left controller to move link and jump, right controller to make stabby/blocking sword actions. [:)] It'll probably be even able to play Nintendogs with that thing..

After seeing the controller, I had to do this photoshop...

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/jesusrev.jpg[/img]

quote:Originally posted by Souri

After seeing the controller, I had to do this photoshop...

Sacrilicious! [:p]

I have mixed feelings about it... I?ll just say this.. I?ll have to try it out for myself before I come to a conclusion about how well it works.

quote:
After seeing the controller, I had to do this photoshop...

*chuckle* - nice work :)

i say good on em for having the guts to just make what they think is best without care for the limiting standards, that being said i hope (perhaps just for their sake) that its not a one trick pony ala eye toy.

Anyone else seeing the potential for this to be a 'mace' in gaming disputes.

Yay Nintendo!!

As long as they get the developer support and don't shun the western market (ala DS, where some of the most innovative and popular titles haven't even been considered for release in the western markets), then I would say that nintendo have just proven how far away they're pushing themselves from the "arms race" that xbox and PS are attempting to battle over.

Sure... most gamers living rooms will most probably have either a ps3 -or- an xbox 360... but they'll most probably also have a revolution alongside them. So nintendo wins in that circumstance while sony and microsoft share. However, I expect nintendo to also have a revolution in self-confessed non-gamers living rooms and the people that bought it "just for that cute character/animal with-the-big-puppy-eyes-and-widdle-nose game" they heard about.

hardware power abilities and hardcore gamer market doesn't mean much in the end in terms of business and population saturation - I'd say nintendo have the best footing of all three major console producers at the moment. Oh... and I'm also going to assume like the GC and N64, they'll have minimal piracy and all their mass popularity brands that incite cultural shifts to support themselves with... halo's got nothing when it comes to moving units on pokemon, mario, zelda, nor the new nintendogs brand.

Man... I really do think although they might seem like those crazy Japanese guys, they have the most sound business strategies, and also know what gamers want, even when gamers themselves don't know they want it.

quote:Originally posted by Sorceror Bob

Anyone else seeing the potential for this to be a 'mace' in gaming disputes.

Yay Nintendo!!

Hmm - the aerodynamic thumbstick would make it at least +2 to hit?[}:)]

I thought it looked a bit clumsy at first until seeing how the controller is held. Perhaps using it might also increase your 'bilateral dexterity' - good for picking both nostrils at the same time etc.

Does anyone remember the 'ergonomic' keyboards that were split into two units, with the more commonly used keys nearest the fingers (instead of QWERTY)? Unfortunately they flopped, possibly because using a traditionally laid out keyboard is far too ingrained.

With a controller, it's less of a stretch to remember a few buttons and it looks very usable, though I wonder how many might be put off using one initially because of the unusual design.

Someone mentioned the powerglove somewhere, and I immediately thought how much in common it has with this new controller. With the powerglove, you could tilt your hand to move left and right (used a lot for driving games), and offered new ways to play games like boxing games (where you could use the glove to punch opponents). Moving your fingers would be what you'd do instead of pushing buttons to shoot or select options etc.

The big problem with the powerglove was that you got fatigue from holding your hand/arm out for long periods of time. Looking at the promo demonstration, I wouldn't be surprised if the same problem will carry across to the new controller. I think the powerglove would actually be more intuitive and lot more comfortable than holding a remote controller as well, especially for actions like wielding a sword, fishing, and all the games they envisioned with the device.

I've had a least one friend complain that, being a left-handed person, the console controllers are made for right-handed people. Looks to me like Nintendo have come up with an innovative and very cool solution.

The powerglove might be more intuitive, but it's also a lot more intimidating to the non gamer. There's less psychological barrier to pick up something like a TV remote control compared to putting on a sci fi looking glove.

Oh and JI Styles, I totally agree with you on all points. People say Revolution is a risk, which it is in some ways, but at the same time it's an extremely smart business move. On top of that it's great for the industry as a whole, hopefully this will revive and inspire innovation in the games industry instead of running it into a stale mix of recycled games.

You gotta worry if that controller can handle everything a developer might like to throw at it though. Like steering wheels for consoles are fun, but they were only made for driving games (that being said me n a friend used to play mario 64 with a stering wheels just for kicks, crazy) and this thing looks very much like it was made for "party" games.

yeah, Mario Party 24 should be a blast.

what the revolution needs to prove itself is at least one killer game. an a-grade title that couldnt possibly be done on another system. not a short, gimmicy game (yoshi touch and go), or a collection of them (wario ware), or a joystick alternative (super mario DS), but a full length, high quality, 5 star game that proves that the revolution is all that they;re talking it up to be. this is what the DS has been suffereing from, and only nintendogs and kirby have begun to fix this. if nintendo cant pull off something like mario 64 was for the N64 (essentially defining the 3d platformer and revealing the analogue stick to the world in all it's glory), then i don't think most people will see the point.

Guys, check it out. Some (poor) magazine scans of Red Steel, the recently announced Nintendo Revolution game from Ubisoft. It's a fps'er, so it'll be interesting to see how this goes with the new controller. The game looks quite good.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/elmoco/124817433/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/elmoco/124806829/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/elmoco/124806830/in/photostream/

That's lookin pretty cool actually, I'm still curious as to how long it will last, I mean its far from the casual game mentality, you need to always be seated in a way that you can flail your arms about, and that kinda thing will always get tiring. The gun peripheral games only ever became so popular and this game (and controller) seems to be pretty much just the same thing. Usually in the end Players just end up settling for laying on the couch with the hand controller on their lap.

I wonder if they'll figure a way of doing two guns moving independantly, like using two controllers, now THAT would be cool, you'd have to rigg one of the controller's D-Pads to be directional or something.

apparently the controller is very sensitive, so you dont have to tire yourself out waving your arms about.

its got me interested, fps was a obvious choice for that controller

I reckon a lot of people will be resting their hands with the controller on their lap or either leg leg when they play this game. I'm sure you'll be able to adjust the controller's sensitivity so that a small flick of the wrist would be enough to cover whole screen.

I remember when I used to play Virtual Cop 2 in the arcades a lot, holding up that hand gun with your arms stretched out for an hour was just extremely tiring. Even though I'd played it tonnes of times before, and could beat the game everytime, it was still a challenge to fight arm fatigue [;)]

I'm sure nin will issue out some sort of pelvic attachment to ergonomically distribute the weight, I mean we're talkin game player's here, theres only so much exertion a man's right arm can take :)

I can see the headlines now, "Gamer injures right arm in DOA related vigour, sues Nintendo"

the headline "Nintendo releases pelvic attachment 'to prevent RSI'" might be a bit of a loser though.

Ah damnit, I just got home. Missed it by 20 minutes [:(] I really wanted to see what Stand Alone Complex was all about.

is that ghost in the shell 2? we watched that at work during a couple of lunches once, but the only subtitles we had were english for the hearing impared, so we got stuff like "computer beeps", "gunfire" and "explosions" as well as actuall voice text.

Nah, it's not Ghost in the Shell 2. It's a GITS story spread over 7? episodes, but not the follow up to the first movie. I've seen GITS 2 and that was a bit of a disappointment. The story was boring and it had too much philosophical mumbo jumbo and nothing much else exciting really happens. Some of the 3D seemed like a showcase rather than being a blended-in seemless part of the movie. If you want to see something *really* cool, go see that Appleseed movie [:)]

Ill second the appleseed comment :)

Also FFVII Advent children is amazing.....

Are u kidding? I think ghost in the shell 2 is beautiful....the thing that is wrong with it is the english translation, i dont think it interperets the dialogue of some scenes right, so that why its confusing. i wish i knew japanese so could watch it properly. And man you cant overlook the parade sequence.

And about Stand Alone Complex.....is you think it is pretty cool, just wait till you hear those friggen little robot vehicles talk. man they ruined it for me

Nah, the robots are cool, have you seen the mini-episodes dedicated to them?

GITS:SAC is definetly not as serious as the movies are, but it's still good :-)

GITS SAC is a series that pre date the events of the 1st movie (the puppet master). A 2nd series has be completed too aptly named GITS SAC 2nd Gig. Dont ask why such a naming convention. I believe both series are about 20+ episodes

Mine is:

Main Toon: Grumblepants.
Lvl : 60
Race: Dwarf
Class: Warrior
Guild. "Thats Not a Knife!"
Server : Proudmoore.

Anyone wanting to start come to Proudmoore as our Guild is basically all real life friends and we regularly raid and communicate via Skype.

I was just reading the notes for the latest patch and there is a new Roleplaying PvP server apparently. All us Sumeans should start a guild on that server and slay EVERYONE! [:)]

Started one week ago.

Main Character: Rahnem
LvL: 15
Race: Night Elf
Class: Priest
Guild: None
Server: Dark Iron (PvP)

If anyone is into roleplaying, check out the RP-PvP server Twisted Nether (I think thats what it's called).

Look out for my vegetarian Orc character Kenneth. He was inspired my K-k-k-Ken from A Fish Called Wanda [:p].

Hi guys, heres mine

Main Character: Sindiyanti
LvL: 34
Race: Troll
Class: Hunter
Guild: First Line Of Defense
Server: Tichondrius (PvP)

Hehe your Orc character sounds cool, Kane [:)] So people actually roleplay on those servers? That's heartening to hear!

I built up a 42 druid on proudmoore in the first month WoW was out, but realised that I would probably trade in my life & my programming to remain playing so went cold-turkey. Fantastic game though, just way too addictive :D

As usual though, the guys from Penny Arcade express it in the most sublime fashion:

[url]http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-08-01&res=l[/url]

I've had WoW since December last year and have only been working on one toon:

Name: Vilemdor
Level: 60
Race: Human
Class: Paladin
Guild: Eternal Requiem
Server: Blackrock (PvP)

PS: Nerf Shamans. Buff Pallys.

How are you guys handeling that new "disease" running rampant throught the WoW servers?

For those who don't know what I'm talking about...

http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/2005/09/_dig_this_an_eb.h…

http://wowaids.ytmnd.com/

[:p]

just found this http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3

People should note that Eric Raymond was quite polite to the guy on the phone and was told that his name had come from the research team. Eric Raymond suggested that a joke was being played, and promised a full explanation by email, which is where that quote is from.

If you don't know who Eric S. Raymod is and you want to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

http://www.google.com/search?q=Eric+S+Raymond&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I have big issues with his stances on guns and the war in Iraq.

Whatever else people think and say about him he is one hell of a programmer, and he's the guy who made the halloween documents public (internal microsoft memos, proved genuine, about their long-term strategies for dealing with Linux and open source software) http://www.opensource.org/halloween/

Whatever you think of the guy, thats one hell of a response. Its nice to see he's sticking to his guns atleast

I think he's also showed us all how completely lame we are at flaming... [:D]

That is flame prose... :)
I admire his ethics - MS usually throw lots of money at people when they hire. Although it actually costs a fortune to live at Redmond anyway :)