Job and Work Experience

w00t!

Grats! What position was that for? [8D]

Great work man!

Congrats Kezza, awesome stuff!!

Congratulations! [:D]

AWESOME MATE!! ^^I?m glad you got in.

I've applied for the position of designer and multiplayer designer. They gave me a "design test" and I did that TRUTHFULLY to the best of my abilities.

They?re now sending it out to me in postage for me to sign the IP legal jargons. Which is fine.

I'm proud that I got this far. But it would be awesome to get one of the two jobs I applied for. Crossing my fingers my lack of experience is compensated for by perseverance and Potential.. I sent them 80 pages of a game design document to start with so they must of liked that <.< or got really annoyed.

well done mate! good luck with the new job :)

Hey Caroo, I applied for the designer position as well (I did show interest in other positions with my covering letter) and received the "designer test" as well.

Haven't heard anything since, the problem I see is how senor the role might be and reflect how much experience is required to fill such a position. Not that I mind a challenge, I wish the best for both of us! [:D]

Morphine: Indeed mate. I wish the best of luck to you to!!

Congrats mate!

Lol, just rang home and I've received the IP rights letter too! Just have to get home and send it back hehe

Nice work man, good luck with it.

well done :)

That's fantastic news - congrats.

Morphine: I haven't recieaved it yet. i live in melbourne so i wont get it to at least monday :(

oh well^^

quote:Originally posted by Morphine

Grats! What position was that for? [8D]

junior programmer [:)]

congratulations. Pandemic are a great studio putting ut some truly awesome games of late.

Working in games industry does involve long hours and long periods of living on nothing but pizza but really when it's all said and done, it beats packing shelves for a living... :)

Enjoy yourself!

Do you and Red get to sit next to each other???

Congrats!!

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

Do you and Red get to sit next to each other???
Congrats!!

Not sure,
but I'm pretty sure he'll be nearby either way.

Great to hear man!

quote:Originally posted by Kezza

quote:Originally posted by Morphine

Grats! What position was that for? [8D]

junior programmer [:)]

Sweet as Kezza! Good luck with the new job, hopefully myself and Caroo will be seeing you there shortly [:D]

Of course he is, I'm not going to yell when I want my coffee!

great news! well done kezza!

pop

quote:Originally posted by Morphine

quote:Originally posted by Kezza

quote:Originally posted by Morphine

Grats! What position was that for? [8D]

junior programmer [:)]

Sweet as Kezza! Good luck with the new job, hopefully myself and Caroo will be seeing you there shortly [:D]

You and me.. that would be an awesome turn of events mate XD!!

Caroo: I know ..lets make a game about..
Morphine: For the last time! you can't make a game based on tits!
Caroo: *runs away crying*

you can, you just can't sell it at wal mart [V]

I beg to differ - Playboy the Mansion :)

I forgot about that one. I wonder if they do actually carry it... Maybe the wal mart peeps aren't as the right wing conservative as I thought.

OMFG liek gratz to you! [:p]

Good work Kezza! Be sure to keep us posted on what it's like working there!

[:)]

I've been checking the Pandemic website everyday.. the posisitions are fulling up FAST. currently 10 job types left out of 14..

in other words "THE SKY IS FALLING!! AHHHHH!!"

<>

Congrats [:)]

I think it's best if you try to arrange some meetings with developers before you leave... some of the large studios in Europe (UK in particular) can be very difficult to find once you're there, some don't even display a name on their offices.

You could also try emailing a recruitment agency such as datascope who handle a lot of European devs job placements.

Anyway good luck mate, you'll no doubt run into a few Aussies and Kiwis over there... there's usually 1 or 2 of them hidden deep inside each UK dev studio.

thanks for the tips Red5.

Brisbane all the way!

Low cost of living, friendliest city I've lived in yet, and unlimited opportunities.

Why go anywhere else?

Scott.

I'll tell you when i find any work [:X]
but yeah Brisbane seems the best all around

I would have to say the same and im in the A.C.T:( But yes Brisbane for me too.

We had a vote on this 2 years ago on Sumea. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/svotes.asp?id=27"]Interesting results[/url]. It would be interesting to see how a vote now on the same subject would go.

Yeah, would be very interesting.

Vote [1] Brisbane!

im from melbourne, but I prefer brisbane to work, but i find more opportunites in melb.

Brisbane Brisbane Brisbane Brisbane!

And just to be completely different........ BRISBANE! woot go our city.

I hope you have good air conditioning up there, because as
an ex-pom, if I venture up north I'll be wearing a Dr. Moreau
bucket of ice on my head to handle the heat [:p]. I graduated
down here in Melbourne, often driving past Melbourne House
(now renamed Atari House) where those 8-bit classics were made.

melbourne looks like a great place to live (though i risk driving around the CBD), but i dont know about working there, simply becuase it seems most companies are not local to the cbd, like here in brisbane. i'm probably wrong though, i've only been to mebourne twice for agdc, and that's the impression i got.

Have to say Brisbane as well :D Its so much warmer that south coast NSW!

melbourne is rather cold at the moment, but i live in the CBD and there are at least 4 game studios within 30 min walk of my place. Lots of things to do in melbourne as well....

Brisbane is too bloody hot, humid, and full of Queenslanders [:D]

Actually Queensland always seems to full of bloody Victorians! :)

I'm from Sydney actually (and lived there for over 21 years). I had the sense to escape to Melbourne...

I remember there were lots of jokes about Victoria being On the Move (from old vic number plates) to Queensland.

I just moved to QLD from SA, SA definately sucks hardly any oportunity. Loving Brisbane so far, just hope it doesnt get to hot in summer :)

Just in random reply to the points you raised, I'm here to play devils advocate:

- a company is not willing to shell out $3000+ for a work rig, plus another $4000+ for software so an in-experianced person can play around and be non-productive taking up 3x3 meters of space and needing constant attention to answer questions and direct in the right direction. It's a general rule of thumb that it takes around a week for new employee to start producing useable assets (after they've gotten over technology and technical obstacles). $28,000 setup costs isn't a very comfortable figure for setting up to accomodate for 4 work experiance people.

- time lost on other employees needed to direct the work experiance people, answer questions, teach proprietry (and potentially sensitive) information/skills so they can actually attempt to try working.

- legalities -- a lot of states, it's not legal to take on work experiance people unless minimal wage is paid. So now we're paying wages on top of setup fees based on awards per age.

- taking on someone unproven to be employable. Skills and abilities are one thing, but the most important thing in a new employee is if they're going to mesh with the company culture and existing employees. We don't want an arsehole.

Usually there's two reasons to people not obtaining jobs in this industry. Either they're not as good as the competition going for the jobs, or their aren't the jobs there to begin with. These people left over are the ones looking at work experiance, which aren't that attractive to a company. They should be looking at improvement in base skills first, or potentially other applications of those skills in other areas.

my disclaimer here is this was written very fast before heading off, so apologies if I come off rude -- like I said, playing devils advocate [:)]

Yep pretty much have to side with J.I. Styles on that one.

Experience is one thing but showing what you can do is another. If you can't get work experience simply try to join a small team and produce a small indie games title. Work on your skills to make yourself so attractive to companies that your resume gets put on the top of the pile.

Just keep working at it, Its not uncommon to have to wait a year or two before getting the job you want.

Yeah i agree with both McKnight and the rest. I believe that getting work experience in this industry is nearly equal to landing a job. Especially in Australia that is. I'm pretty sure that someone who has had even a couple of months experience in a company has a greater advantage over the rest, even though his skills might be worse in general. On the other hand the companies usually have enough problems of their own and cant be bothered taking on inexperenced staff and guiding them through everything.
Its a tough situation and it sucks. But as the industry grows over here, i'm sure that sooner or later there will be more work experience placements. If you look at the UK industry which is an old one and has grown considerably over the years, you can see that there are loads more opportunities for work experience there. Mainly from big companies that have some cash to spare in order to train and find new talent. Once bigger companies start arriving in AU (thq for example) and you can be sure they will eventually, then there will be more room for work experience too.

J.I. Styles is bang on!

Here's a thought if your straight out of school. Film Victoria runs an internship program where they offer to pay a portion of a 30K wage for seven months. There are a limited number of positions available but if you are accepted as a potential candidate you are allowed to approach companies and tell them that if they want to approach film vic on your behalf they could have you as a new employee/intern at half price for seven months. This is a great incentive to look at taking on a beginner. I realise your in QLD and not VIC but you should check out if the QLD government does something similar!

cheers

Kit, have applied for the Internship?

- If you have who did you approach first, Film Victoria or a company?
- What's the best way to contact a company for the Internship purpose, should I ring them, email, or send them a letter?

Hi USSMC,

You can only apply for an internship through Film Victoria if you live in Victoria (so don't get your hopes up if you don't).

Approach Film Victoria first. You will have to fill out some forms and send in a show reel. There's no guarantees but you should be accepted as a POTENTIAL intern.

You then have 2 options.

1) sit back and wait as interested companies can look you up through the internship listings. (not the best option)

2) Start sending your resume out with a cover letter that explains the internship. You are allowed to say you are a potential candidate. If the company you approach is interested they have to contact Film Victoria also. In your resume include the url's for the internship info pages on the Film Vic web site (you will have to hunt these up). And mention that you will give them a phone call in a week to see if they're interested.

There are only a limited number of internships and they can go to anyone in the visual arts industries not just gamers so competition for positions is pretty fierce. You have a better chance of winning an internship if you can get a company interested in hiring you!!

It also dosen't hurt to get your folio up online if your able. Link to your website through your sumea profile. Also try listing that you are looking for an internship and have potential funding on the "looking for work" forum here on sumea!

And yes I did all of the above and yes this is how I got into the industry so it is possible [:)]

Good luck

Thanks Kit, now I can breathe a little easier when I finish my course.[:)]

Well for anyone who wants to know the average wage for Krome was about $13 p/h I do remember hearing from Jason Cross (QA Manager) you get about $440 in your hand per week. But I also think that the QA positions @ krome were seasonal.

Im not a 100% sure if someone could correct me or confirm.

That would be a very nice payment indeed. Would be good to see what Fuzzyeye offers in payment, I have my interview today. I will post after the interview for people's future reference.

We really need a Sumea QA article to dispel some myths and get some facts and tips on QA testing jobs in Australia, much like the [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sarticle.asp?art_ID=16"]Sumea article for 3d modellers[/url].

Yeah good idea Souri maybe ask guys who are already in QA in this forums to help I know that Mcdrewski has blogs about QA theres prolly more out there as well as those who previously was in a QA position. great idea though.

friends who've done it say that what they miss most is the ability to talk things over, plan, critique, brainstorm etc. with their colleagues.

Well?
// doomer mode
What if in the years to come, economic hardship hits everyone extremely hard? This is possible (and I believe probable, don?t ask me why?), and in that case working from home will become an essential part of maintaining a job. Millions of people commuting to work everyday is extremely expensive and wasteful, especially when it?s not completely necessary. There are many jobs that could be performed at home (not just games), and in the perfect world they would be. If times get tough, I believe many companies would prefer to have the bulk of their employees working from home ? in order to save the dollars that allow them to stay in business. Though that?s assuming a harsh future that most people don?t believe in. Will things be this good forever? Time will tell.
//end doomer mode

-And working from home would be way cool!! [:D]

Just to add to what Palantir has said - as internet speeds become faster and faster it will allow for larger data transfers and mean that we can have net meetings that run a lot more smoothly....

As someone who's worked from home in the past, I have to say that it's not all roses.

It's incredibly difficult to remain productive when you're working from home for a variety of reasons.

Firstly, Instant Messaging is no substitute for a team dynamic. You'll find that you're not working as much as you would be if you were working together in a work specific environment. It doesn't matter how motivated you are, you just NEED to have that human element.

Secondly, when you live in the space that you work, you'll find it hard to keep yourself on task. You'll wake up when you feel like it, when you hit a stumbling block you'll jump over to slashdot or will go make some toast... if you use the same PC for work, play and general screwing around, you'll find it immensely difficult to stay focused on work. The internet is your worst enemy in this situation. Probably the best thing you can do is turn off MSN and kick out your network cable.

You'll find your motivation waning because you have no place to go in the day, except the 3 metres between your bed and your PC. It's a really shabby lifestyle (you're a domestic housewife with homework... any young go getter type will vomit at this thought).

Compare this to placing yourself in an office every day with people who are insanely good at what they do, working as a team... being a part of the machine (rather than a displaced component). Seperating work and play. You'll meet new people, do new things and find yourself a part of what's called life.

I don't believe the "virtual office" can work (or at least it will never be a substitute for a real workplace). This is partly why a vast majority of MODs never even get past 10% complete.

Scott.

My current workplace has plans to eventually allow everyone to be able to work from home, using applications like COITalk and Skype that can allow you to conference, even share your desktop, and talk with anyone/everyone at anytime. It all sounds good because we could all be spread over the four corners of the globe and still be able to talk like we're sitting round the conference table.

The first problem I have with that is that, unless you're very disciplined, work-life and home-life merge. For me, there has to be a clear separation between work and home otherwise I'd turn into one of those workalholic types that suffers a mental breakdown or dies of heart failure before making it to 50. The second problem is that your world becomes so small. The commute to work consists of the 10 second walk from the kitchen to the home office. Unless you've got some sort of social group of friends to get you out of the house, that's all your world consists of.

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r
I don't believe the "virtual office" can work (or at least it will never be a substitute for a real workplace).

Have to say I couldn't agree more with that.

It can work, you just have to be very disciplined, motivated, 110% dedicated and have extremely powerful will to suceed.
Im an example of exactly what this topic is all about.

I Picked at bits and pieces of small work here and there for various clients for quite some time, before long I needed more people to help. But without the money to setup a studio - I had to make best use of the time / money that was available to me.
Hence my virtual network began (mostly of brisbanites so i was actually able to call meetings for that physical factor)

Since then things have moved on a bit, we have a new studio in Teneriffe - But with almost a couple years worth of exactly this kind of experience and 2 major projects under my belt ive found that the tough part is all about finding the right people. Without team players this will never work at all. Ive found over the last couple of years thats its definately for some people, not for others.

Working from home for me is the best, most productive, most inspiring and most efficient way to run my business. This is not to say that it works for everyone though!

I suffer badly with insomnia. I am having a particularly bad stretch at the moment with only about 3 hours per 24 hours. However, with a home studio - THIS IS GREAT FOR BUSINESS! Jumping up in the middle of the night and talking to a client in the States, then popping outside to record some night ambience, then doing some exercise, having a bite to eat, then back to work - its all up to me! With an office 9-5 situation, this could not happen.

Now, the point of being motivated. Why do we go to work each and every day and do our 9-5??? - To pay the bills and put food on the table. If that isn?t enough motivation for home workers to get off the net and games and start working...I don?t know what is! You need to work to earn money to live - simple!

I do understand that it can be hard gathering inspiration. I?m am very lucky because sitting right behind me is 9 acres of bushland, dams, a swimming pool and a tennis court - perfect for inspiration - but that?s all from working at home.

Now, I also have 41 contract employees from around the world working for me on various projects and guess what...they all work from home. This is perfect because everybody works in their own time and their own motivation.

For the future, I don?t think that there are many game development houses that make everything 'in-house', especially with the connection of the internet as a means of virtual interaction.

Anyway, again, this is just me and everyone is completely different! Great topic though!

Mick Gordon

yeh...definately something that is worth thinking about..

the idea is really attractive to me... and i have worked from home in the past as an illustrator and designer...

i really like what mick said about the bushland, swimming pool and the tennis court :)
.....sounds like the perfect working enviroment to me...

in the past i would make good money in short bursts... very freeing feeling...and then i would spend another 3 weeks learning game or 3d stuff (until the money ran out:) )...

i would love to be in that situation again sometime in the future..
only with game asset creation [:)]

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

friends who've done it say that what they miss most is the ability to talk things over, plan, critique, brainstorm etc. with their colleagues.

I'll attest to that.

I'm trying to get work like this, work from home. I live in New Zealand and haven't been able to get a job in a local studio yet, so it think this is a great way to get some more experience and some money. I've been working on a mod for 18 months now, so i'm quite used to working this way. Any tips on how to get these kind of jobs, off-site contract work. I keep an eye on all the major forums and new sites for job postings. I've been applying for jobs that pop up, but haven't been successful as yet.

What things helped you to get this kind of work.

I think it would be hard to learn new things from the people around you if your working form home. Espeically if its your first time in the industry.

Gibbz: Once again - it comes down to the individual - youll only learn as fast as you allow yourself. Here good communication with our contractors is the *key* ingredient to running a successful pipeline. We are constantly chatting / talking to one another ( bullshit and workstuff ) and producing shots of where we are up to and as we progress - every 2 hours, as if we were right there anyway - the only part thats undisputable is the face to face human contact - but we call meetings every few days to talk and see how everyone is going - discuss new possibilties / trouble with the pipline / new ideas.

Personally I wouldnt have it any other way. [:)]

I think you might have to elaborate there a little, just what is paysales? I'd hazard a guess that it's salary but it'd be better if you explained it to us.

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/seducation.asp"]Ambit Salary Survey[/url] is the best info we have atm..

Think it was a typo Wiz, maybe paysCales...

ah - yes - I made a typo. I should have written pay scales...

I guess I am talking average salaries really - [;)]

Sorry - wrote the mail whilst doing something else - that will teach me...

-----------
quote:Originally posted by jimellis

Hi guys -

Im curious as to pay sCales in oz for an experienced artist (8 years) who's mainly lit/modelled/textured. Has also lead one project (but not too insistent on doing it again right now...)

Have Softimage/Maya and a little bit of MAX

Whats the score down there regarding the above. (I ask as Im heading down under with my young family for a change of scenery from the UK)?

Cheers Guys

$5 and a you can have biscuit if you stop crying...... (disclaimer: must provide own biscuit)

Or try here [:P]

[url]http://bigkid.com.au/2004/07/28/ambit-salary-survey/[/url]

As they keep saying on Law and Order in response to questions like this... "Anything is possible".

However, I don't think you could put a price on the sort of skills that your experienced artist/programmer will bring and share with all the less experienced in the company either. I very much suspect that if there was any way at all to employ a "guru" then most companies would jump at the chance.

In fact I know a few people like this. They're usually able to choose which house they want to work for and move around almost as they please.

It's good to be the king. :P

Scott.

Kinda hard getting to that stage...

You're speaking of two things..

Experience and Money.

You can be too experienced for a position. A company may feel like they're wasting your time or you'll be bored in the job if you're overqualified. Bored people leave the company too soon.

The other thing is money, just because you're a lead artist on HalfLife 2 doesn't mean if the company and you agree that they can't afford to pay you as highly as before, but you have other benefits, like sponsorship to work in Australia, or a product or company you really want to work with, or even that you're migrating here and need work then it's just down to negotiation on both parties.

jazzy, employing at least one hugely experienced artist and programmer can be the smartest move any studio can make, even if it means having to advertise overseas and then paying those people double what you'd expect to pay a local.
The real value in doing this is to place those people in a position to mentor the less experienced staff, so it's vital to choose applicants who have good people skills.

So to answer you question, I don't believe one can ever be too experienced, experience opens doors and new opportunities.
I also believe that any developer who refuses to pay for the services of highly experienced/skilled staff is not a serious developer.

Just because the person is extremely experienced in the particular area doesn't mean that they MUST be payed an extreme amount. It just means that if the person wants the job they must agree to the salary/wage they are offered. If they do not agree then obviously they are looking in the wrong place for the job.

I mean if I was over experienced (How can you be over experienced?) then I would not become all snobby and say that I can be payed no less than 80k+ .. prancing around like hot property :D... But that is just me. Also why would someone who worked on Half Life 2 move to Australia and expect the same pay from a smaller company :S.

Haven't got a Game Industry Interview story yet.. but I will after tuesday! :P

I had an interview with Krome back in March, the studios was soo cool, I had to get buzzed in from the street walked up a few step and was faced with the lobby which was full of guys surrounding 3 couches all facing a big screen tv all playing Ty, the place was really cool everyone was casualy dress and the atmosphere was relaxing and fun, I knew straight away I have found where I want to be ... forever, but I didnt get the job, but no worries got a interview this week on wednesday, and this time its goin to be better

Okay,

I've been to a few interviews now and have gotten two industry jobs. So here's some advice to both you guys.

Firstly most companies will ask you question, technical questions or whatever. The best trick to these is firstly never lie. Secondly, if you don't know something don't be afraid to say you don't know. The reason being a lot of people will just make up rubbish on the spot, and just dribble away, while if you can just say you don't know it allows your team leader to know immediately that he just has something to teach you and save both of you some time.

Make sure you dress casual but neat. Just ask if ya not confident but most people will just laugh if you do, and go where whatever you want :)

Anyway good luck guys

Perhaps I'm from a different background, but I'd never dress casually for a job interview. A guy/gal in a suit might look overdressed, but there's absolutely no risk of being underdressed.

I wouldn't dress in a suit unless I was in some billion dollar company :D I mean it's like hiring a mercedes to drive to the interview. Just dress nice not too casual but not too fancy. Doesn't matter.

I wear business pants and shoes and a nice shirt for those kinds of interviews. I only wear my suit for an office position at an insurance company. God that was a shit job.

Had an interview with Krome also about 2 months back. Still havent heard from them so heres hopeing :)

Gibbz I think after about 2 weeks you lose all hope for that job. 2 months.. they aint calling mate :D.

When I go to interviews I wear my good pair of jeans and a nice buttoned T-Shirt. It's casual but looks really neat.

Just got offered a QA position @ Krome today, the position is not open yet but when it does I'll be contacted. Gillian also said to call her if I dont hear from her in a week in case she forgets hope she doesnt :S

For my interviews have been nice jeans and buttoned shirt with black shoes

Congrats AntsZ :)

thanx Leachy,

I had an interview today for a different company called Nightlife [url]http://www.nightlife.com.au[/url] building computers for Nightclubs to take over DJ's pretty cool stuff, but its not really in the industry I want but I still gain some valuable IT experience and maybe a great reference lets just see what happens

I went to my interview at Fuzzyeyes today. I thought it went well, the guys there are great. I REALLY hope I get the job, looking forward to testing for this guys and I know I am up for it.

A really funny thing happened today actually, I was in the interview in an office and this guy bursts through the door and goes, "Have you seen the ham and cheese?" in a real slow and deep, comical sort of voice, then dissapeared.

Anyways, don't hear a reply until next week :( Time to waste, games to play :D.

Not many stories to share, but having been on both ends of the stick now, interviewee and a part of the interviewer process, the only things I can contribute are:

- know the differance between an interview and a chat. 99% of the time you're called in because they already know your abilities from the resume you sent last week - people just want to talk to you to find out whether your personality will mesh with the company and work culture. If you're all uptight wanting to impress with your technical knowledge and experiance in this situation, likelihood is you'll come away looking like a nervous prat. Yes, you'll be asked about your knowledge/experiance, but the main point is to just get to know you.

- suits scare people in this industry. They scare me. I'm used to the person in the suit being the one going over your game with a fine tooth comb assessing market viability, not the person under me.

- lastly (and this especially goes for potential juniors) you're allowed to be excited about an opportunity, you're allowed to be avidly into games, but just chill out. You need to learn that you're setting out in a career, making products for a company, and getting a paycheck to feed yourself and pay your bills, and if you haven't learnt this fact yet then that makes you unemployable - we don't want to hire some fanboy kid who'll sell their soul for any opportunity in the games industry because it's the cool thing. This attitude and behaviour not only makes a person a problem employee, but it also perpetuates bad practices in companies that abuse this (eg, hiring 30 juniors at $20,000 pa then firing them once the game ships - it's their fault for letting this company abuse them like that since they took such a crap deal).

Well first off all this is my first post so greeting to everyone! I've only recently arrived here in Australia and looking for a job in the games industry. I've had a couple of interviews so far so I can only speak of those.
First of all a little background, I came from the UK where i finished a Masters degree in Computer games technology and then moved here. Why didnt i stay there(considering its a bigger industry)?? Well mainly due to personal reasons.
Ok so what i've come to realise so far is: There are not many (if any) opportunities for recent graduates (junior positions) compared to the UK industry. Of the multiple job applications i've done, plus the 2 interviews, it all came down to industry experience (which i dont have...yet).
Secondly, degrees dont mean much (especially my degree from UK, although it means something there - different systems).
Thirdly, many companies are abit rude and take ages to reply (and sometimes dont at all), but this is a worldwide occurence, not only in aussie companies. My worst experience was waiting for a month after I had the interview only for them to say i didnt have enough experience (something that they could have told me early on or at the interview).

But anyway, best advice is to keep trying! the more you look the more possibilities there are for you to get that evasive position.

Btw,McKnight, what was the interview like at Fuzzyeyes?? Was it for the voluntary tester thing or normal tester position? I prolly got an interview with them soon (but for different position), so thats why i'm asking [:D] fingers crossed you get the job! (and i get one too[:p])

Hi and welcome to Australia.

On the finding work problem and having a Masters degree. well done. I have my Diploma 2 in games but like you say it dose not mean much
here unless you can show that your what there looking for. As I found out the hard way,And ten grand later. Your grades are like 10% if that of what there looking for, And 60% is how good your work looks and I'm sure how fast you are will come in some where there to. 30% is if you will fit in to the teem. well this is what it seam like
from where i stand, And from what i have read and been told.

I'm not sure what part of the 3D world you like to work in or what your skilled in. But I don't think I'm to far off. but as you know its not the same for all of us. I have a wife and two kids.and that makes it a bit harder for me to find work out of the A.C.T .

But all in all best of luck.

love to know how you go.

quote:Originally posted by Sc00by

Hey all!
Everyone seems to be hiring around the place.
Did you apply anywhere? Did you get an interview?
If so, how did it go and what interesting stories do you have?[:D]

I've had some feedback from people have gained employment via Sumea jobs, but it would be great if people would pass some more knowledge in the forums here too. With many of the job postings here viewed in their hundreds (and someimes up to 600!), and if only a tiny fraction of people applied out of that, I'm sure there are a lot of stories to tell. I know some places get quite a lot of applicants from posting job ads on Sumea.

It'd be also great to know if the Looking For Work postings are working for those who've posted in there. Any success stories?

btw, there's an old topic with the same question which I posted a while ago in this section. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=228"]Worth reading up[/url].

wow that topic is like 2 years ago, a really good read though.

Well I finally heard back from Krome Studios today.

Looks like I got the job. Starting in July. Im stoked :)
Its been a long wait indeed....

Congrats Gibbz, I got turned down by krome just last week :( second time this year *sigh*. Im waiting a reply from Fuzzyeyes, had my interview last week and was told early this week I was suppose to hear from them hopefully I hear from them tomorrow.

Fingers crossed

Hey AntZ hope ya get the job. Ive had plenty of rejections along the way i know what its like.

Edit nm i found it...

Krome Studios

111 Constance St Fortitude Valley 4006

Thanks
Bronson

I am also waiting for a reply for Fuzzyeyes. Been waiting all week for their reply and I am pulling out my hair :D HOPEFULLY me and AntZ get the job *crosses fingers*

yep its sooo frustrating even so much that my partner is more anxious than me, she keeps telling me to check my email and have my phone on me at all times. She knows how much I want this job and she wants it for me. lol yesterday i left my phone in another part of the house she found it and it had a missed called she couldnt believe i left it there, but it wasnt fuzzyeyes. hoping for today, fingers still crossed

I am also waiting for an answer from fuzzyeyes [:D]
its getting kinda crowded here [:p]

but seriously, the best you can do is relaxand try not to think about it too much. They usually take a while to decide, especially if there are lots of applicants. So relax, think positive and do something else in the meantime (prefferably something that will enhance ur portfolios)

hmm a bit too crowded, oh well all the best guys lets see what happens

skunx: did you go to the volunteer game testing session with fuzzyeyes?

Yeah I have been working on a Design Document for my portfolio also working on a mod. See in the modding section for info on the mod.

Souri,

what kind of information are you after? i would think most people are under NDA so cannot really say mutch about what theyre working on etc?

I'm sure that if there's this many applicants for that position on Sumea that there must be tenfold more in real life that applied, therefore just be patient because they've got a lot of applications to sort through.

well I finally heard back from fuzzyeyes, after much consideration, i lack qualifications and the experience for a QA Games Tester.

which brings me to one point you need some qualifications to get your foot in the door, even if you dont want to learn programming or animation at uni.

argh, sorry to hear that Antz![V] and about qualifications.. i think they are looking for experience much more than qualifications. Qualifications are good for getting u the interview, but experience will get u the job. Its a vicious circle, you cant get a job without experience and u cant get experience without a job.
But dont worry, as long as you try hard you WILL get a position at some point, determination pays off. I havent heard back from them yet, and to answer ur question, no i didnt go to the volunteer testing, i might have had i known about it earlier.

how does one gain experience if one is not given the chance to experience it

I still think a major point is qualifications in a field thats geared towards games devlopment (not always), it gives the employer to think "hey this guy studied this and this, lets give him a shot @ this 1st"

Preparation:
============
Go through your list of experience and be sure you know what you're talking about.
Anything you have achieved or have skills in, touch up again in theory.
Anything you have on your CV make sure you know it.
Create some questions you think the company will ask you. Sit infront of a mirror, ask your reflection those questions, and then you answer them.

Questions:
=========
Sorts of questions you can expect will be of 3 types
1. Your skills, and background - first question is usually - tell us about yourself, your skiils, education, experience.

2. HOw you will fit into certain situations / reactions (ie if you don't know something what would you do? Do you prefer to work alone, or in a team, what are the benefits of both? How would you manage if you had a dead line at the end of the week and you couldn't possibly complete your tasks? etc.

3. Why you may wish to work for that company

Phone Interview:
================
Will be concentrating on your background, your skills, your experience. Be confident on the phone, don't be cocky.

If they like what you have to offer and your confidence of yourself to perform, they will schedule another interview to meet in person. This will be more about your personality and how it will fit into the company, also more questions by different people, you may find yourself before a panel of 3 people.

Good luck!

think of some intelligent questions to ask (incase you are asked to ask questions)

ok thanks guys seems i may be getting somewhere now ;)

Ring them up and speak with there head HR person.

Definitely talk directly to them and explain the situation. Make sure you're clear which job you actually want though.

Thanks guys. I arrive back in Australia in 4 days, so Ill have to call them then. It's also the same time that I'm expecting to hear their reply though. Maybe I can persuade them into an interview at the same time. I wouldn't normally ask all these questions, but if I have a chance to do this, I want to make sure I do it right.

One of my friends recommended that I actually don't apply for the receptionist job and that I'd be better off trying for the QA department. He has confidence in my application for the Content Creation position and suggests that applying for the receptionist job might show that I'm not as serious about getting into game development. I initially considered the receptionist job because it'd be a way to meet people in the company.

Thanks for the advice, these forums are pretty helpful even just for fleshing my thoughts out. I wonder if anyone else has been in a similar position, what they chose, and what the outcomes were.

I think a foot in the door is a foot in the door. Even if it is reception you will still have the ability to hear about the jobs going with the possibility of internal promotion. As well, you may find that in in taking a reception position you may open up different doors into areas like business management and production areas.

There is still the problem of, if you take a job in one area (receptionism) but really want to transfer into another area (design, engineering, art) you have to make a lateral move through the companies structure, which at some companies can be rather difficult.
eg. If you take a job as a QA tester, moving up through the QA ranks (tester, senior tester, lead tester) will be much easier than moving over to the programming department. You are already a good tester, and they know they can depend on you, so they don't want to lose an important person from that department.
You may find a similar thing with the receptionist job, as they would rather keep you as an excellent receptionist, than move you to a design job and have to hire another receptionist.
CYer, Blitz

Decisions, decisions. I guess I'll stick to my plan and wait and see what happens with the job. If I don't get it and the reception position is still open, I'll consider applying (or make my mum apply, bwaha). I've always been very lucky with showing initiative and skill. One regular job I had as a receptionist would have landed me a position in the companies IT department - if I wasn't moving insterstate. Besides, I still have to finish my marketing course anyway, I just didn't want to let the design job slip away without taking my chance and applying.

The company you applied for (i think) is a big comany and has alot of staff members, plus other projects. So being the receptionist would mean not really being able to do anything with the games side of it.

Thanks Chaos, I didn't expect to have anything to do with developing the games - just networking I guess, although you're right, it wouldn't give me any opportunity to impress anyone.

If you're in Melbourne, it might be worth contacting THQ. They have an office in Melbourne.

cheers
sam.

Thanks,

I'll have a look into it, I currently live in Brisbane but perhaps I could go stay down in Melbourne for a while (if I managed to procure the position) or something like that.

...Think you might have to market yourself to one of the companies in Brisbane if you want a job up here. We have a few up here - THQ, Pandemic, Auran, Krome are the bigger "corporate" ones I can think of off the top of my head, plus some smaller ones like Halfbrick, Kalescent, Fuzzyeyes etc.

But if you're really looking for valuable work experience, doing your own research on the companies is really the only way to land ANY job.

Landing a job would be great, though I'm trying to get my studies done first. I know there are a lot of companies around Brisbane, I just wasn't sure which ones had marketing departments and thought I'd ask here. I'm currently in Los Angeles, but as soon as I get back to Australia, I plan on calling around and asking. (If you're curious, I'm studying by correspondence which is why I can travel)

For the work placement assignment, I need to reach certain outcomes that can only be experienced in a marketing department. It'd be so much easier if it was just a regular work experience project!

Anyway, thanks for the replies, I'll start looking at the companies you've suggested and move on from there.

~Jade

I probably wouldnt be working for someone who included a clause like that in their contracts without a counter balancing 6 month termination notice clause in it.

From what I hear it is common [:O] - but it beats me why its in there, perhaps to lower poaching etc.

In any case, try on something like the following:

Suggest to them that if *they* terminate the contract then that clause is null & void. But if *you* resign the clause comes into effect from the day you resign, so effectively you can give 6 months notice and work where you want.

Regardless, you should think seriously about working for a company that is basically attempting to deny you your right to earn a living in your chosen profession.

/my two cents.

i've had contracts that have had 'innapropriate' clauses like that... one stated that I am not allowed to offer my services (this was a blanket definition of services... i couldn't mow someones lawn) whilst under this contract - even though it was a part-time thing.

Anyway, luckily we have a lawyer in the family who helped saying (very unprofessional) companies will copy/paste contract clauses as was the case here, not really understanding what it would mean to you if it were enforced. Often a (solicited) request for a change in a clause is met with no problems if its mutually beneficial. :)

ditto - my last company tried to get me to agree that all "knowledge gained" during my employment with them could not be used in any future employment. I'm a programmer, so that's a pretty broad brushstroke.

Their response when I pushed was that "everyone else has signed it", and so I simply crossed out that paragraph, initialled it and signed it without that clause.

I was fairly close to simply retyping the contract with a few of my own clauses and submitting it to see if they actually read it, but I thought that might be going just a bit too far. [:)]

It's just ludicrous what some contracts state. I have been told that these clauses preventing you working for another company are actually a "restriction of trade" and hence unenforcable, but it'd be much better to get it agreed before starting, since the courts to decide otherwise would be expensive.

Thanks for the advice guys! I think I might see if I can get it changed..

cheers
sam.

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd let you know that I spoke to the company and they were quite happy to change the contract to something more appropriate.

Games industry, here I come! :D

cheers
sam.

[img]http://www.startupbiz.com/Services/Thumbs-up.gif[/img]

quote:It basically says that if my employment is terminated that I'm not allowed to work for another games company for six months

FOR anyone else in a similar situation as this.. and companies using clauses like this:

There's non-competition clauses, and then there's blatant black and white restrictions of "right to trade".

DO NOT ever sign a blatant black and white clause like this. It is actually illigal. A contract with a restriction of right to trade infringement will be deemed void in a court of law. Not to mention it being extremely un-professional and if not naive.

It's better to discuss what it is the comapany is really after and try to negotiate the points in the contract on what it is. Saying "this is our standard contract" is not good enough.

The whole thing about non-compeition is a very fuzzy area. Most companies are trying to stop competitors taking a large bunch of employees to go work on a similar product, or sequel to product. If you sign a clause like this it's better to ask the company to state their reasons in writing why this clause is in there, and have it signed. I am sure most companies would be professional enough that if you did leave for whatever reason and you just happened to apply for a job say in 5 months time for a new position, and it did infringe on the clause you signed, that they would not have any grudge and you would be allowed to work. HOWEVER, if they become nasty, then you can contest in court that they are restricting your right to earn a living if that is the only job available in your chosen profession (being the game industry as small as it is in Australia).

Infact, this whole non-competition stuff I have not seen anywhere else but the game industry. I'd be interested to know if other industries do this too.

Head-hunting is a recognized practice. I don't believe companies can enforce an employer not being able to accept an offer for a better salary or better job. Really it would be up to the employer to provide a counter offer to keep you at the company. I've worked in IT as a contractor and permanent employee for almost 9 years and I've been approached to leave a project and work for someone else. As a professional, my dedication is to the current project I am working on, I just raised it with my manager and they matched the other company's offer to keep me there. Everyone was happy. (well, except the other company who didn't get me).

When you sign an NDA - (this should always be a separate document to the main contract), it should protect the company you work for about trade secrets. As a professional you would not bring or disclose trade secrets to a new employer anyway.

Also you normally are required to give 4 weeks notice of termination. This should be enough protection for a company to find a replacement and transfer knowledge, though if you really are top notch, you may want to give the company a little extra time say 2 months to professionally tie up loose ends and ensure that your role on the project is satisfied by the replacement. The new company will and should respect this as a high level of professionalism.

Probation periods:

Employers usually like to give a probation period of 3-6 months to evaluate your suitability and performance in your role. However, a lot of people forget that this is also the opportunity for you to evaluate your employer and choose to stay or leave as well. If you don't fit in and don't want to work for an employer, DO NOT WAIT for 6 months to let them know, you will be wasting their time and yours. Let them know as early as possible you made the wrong choice.

quote:Originally posted by groovyone
DO NOT ever sign a blatant black and white clause like this. It is actually illigal. A contract with a restriction of right to trade infringement will be deemed void in a court of law. Not to mention it being extremely un-professional and if not naive.

Technically correct, but I bet the company has better lawyers and deeper pockets than you do. Taking this stuff to court would be enforcement enough in most cases.

quote:Originally posted by groovyone
Infact, this whole non-competition stuff I have not seen anywhere else but the game industry. I'd be interested to know if other industries do this too.

I can vouch that it occurs in other IT areas too. I "once heard a story" about a person who was applying for a job with a client of his current employer. However, in this case, the prospective employer also had a non-poaching clause with the guys curent employer, so penalties would have been applied between the companies without involving him at all if he had actually taken the job.

quote:Originally posted by groovyone
When you sign an NDA - (this should always be a separate document to the main contract), it should protect the company you work for about trade secrets. As a professional you would not bring or disclose trade secrets to a new employer anyway.

Of course not, but many NDAs are also written in overly restrictive terms and you should make sure you understand what rights you're being asked to give up.

quote:Originally posted by groovyone
Also you normally are required to give 4 weeks notice of termination.

In Australian industrial relations law (I believe), the notice period is the same as your pay period up to four weeks. ie: if you're paid weekly, your notice (and your company's notice to fire you too!) is one week. If you're paid monthly, it's four weeks, etc.

Specific employement contracts could override that if mutually agreed, but these would normally be in place for very senior positions only.

quote:Originally posted by groovyone
This should be enough protection for a company to find a replacement and transfer knowledge, though if you really are top notch, you may want to give the company a little extra time say 2 months to professionally tie up loose ends and ensure that your role on the project is satisfied by the replacement. The new company will and should respect this as a high level of professionalism.

Ahem. Yes. "respect" can sometimes be a bit of a dirty word when it comes to employment. Remember that this is a business relationship and that going above and beyond your legal obligations, while generous, is a choice that you make for your own reasons. Of course you wouldn't burn your bridges, but your employer also shouldn't expect anything more than the legal or contracted minimum (that's why the contract exists, after all!)

quote:quote:Originally posted by groovyone
Infact, this whole non-competition stuff I have not seen anywhere else but the game industry. I'd be interested to know if other industries do this too.

I can vouch that it occurs in other IT areas too. I "once heard a story" about a person who was applying for a job with a client of his current employer. However, in this case, the prospective employer also had a non-poaching clause with the guys curent employer, so penalties would have been applied between the companies without involving him at all if he had actually taken the job.

Oops.. yes, sorry, this IS common practice in contracts for for contractors to stop poaching by clients. I suppose you need to read your contract carefully and see how deep a relationship with "clients" can go, you wouldn't want to be imposed from working for another company say 18 months down the track who is doing a project for a publisher/client of your current company. Specially what if your company is doing multiple projects for multiple publishers..

Then again, as I mentioned, the company is just trying to stop a lot of core people from leaving the company at the same time which would damage their contractual responsibilities to their client. Most would not have a problem and wouldn't enforce this part of the contract - AS long as you get it in writing when you leave the company!

I did 1 year of contract law at uni. It's all very interesting and complicated stuff.

I don't know the email for HR at Atari Melbourne House, but the emails are usually ***jobs@melbournehouse.com .
So if you're after a QA job, that would be QAjobs@melb...., or if it's IT, it's itjobs@melb...

Postal address is - (this might be the level for the IT department? I don't have their general address handy):

Atari Melbourne House
Level 11, 14 Queens Rd
Melbourne 3004
Australia

Regarding phone calls, I don't think they like people phoning into the office for job related enquiries. Anyway, all these details are second hand, so hopefully someone from Atari Melbourne House can chime in with the proper details. [;)]

try searching in the yellowpages.com.au for a telephone number.
I remember getting the number back then. There is also a sdyney branch if I am not mistaken

Atari have an office in Sydney, near Newport I think. No idea what they do there though. Anyone else here know?

I would have a guess and say it's for the publisher/distribution arm of Atari/Infogrames?

Try searching on whitepages.com.au and ring up the company then ask for the name of the person in charge of HR, if they ask why, just tell them that you like to send out an invitation and you would like to formally address then, if they ask from wat company or whom just make something up. But this works really well, and they wont shut you down when they say sorry there are no positions available. Cold Canvassing really works, I got an interview with a Studio and offered a position from another, both still pending.

I was told this by a Salvation Army Employment Plus consultant, you do learn some good things that the government sets up

Personally, I would try Team Bondi and Perception. Give them a shot. If all else fails, go to the [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopers.asp"]developers page on Sumea[/url] and run through the NSW list and email/phone them all. You've got nothing to lose!

personily I don't see a link between them.. I think you would have more chance becoming a programmer after being a beta tester. programming has something in common which is finding bugs. I just don't see how playing a game and working out its problems relate to your level of art work.

The only benift I see is that you are then part of the company and they have a better understanding of your work life.

Either way doesn't mean they will put you as an artist unless you are upto a standard they like.

Im with USF on that one: We did a paper on testing / finding / eliminating bugs, and its about gameplay. Your coding and knack for finding " I bet this is going to make it crash " are really the only things that get flexed.

On the other hand if youve been working hard on your art and you get an opportunity to show it - then I dont see why not. My guess is that youd just find it a bit harder to get up in the art directors face being in the testing dep.

The main thing at that point is - you've made it to the inside [:)]

think the problem would be more so that the australian development comunity, compaired to most other places in the world, simply is not very big (getting bigger, but i think it is nothing like USA or UK or Japan). think everyone is welcome, but just not that many companies....

Pretty much where ever you are around the globe, if you have talent and there is an opening you will get in. Get some work togeather on a webpage or something and then send it around to the companies here. If they like your work I'm sure they will let you know and move onto the next stage.

It really depends on the company, some are willing to go through the rigors of relocation, but some developers prefer locals since they are already established in the country, which means they can get them in the office working ASAP. Especially helpful when there are deadlines to meet.

It may be hard to get in right out of university. To sponsor someone costs money, and companies will not want to fork out unless they are assured you are top notch in your field.

If you are say, an expert at facial animation and a company wants to produce games with high facial content, then you have a good chance of getting a sponsored work visa.

As a student, there are so many students coming out of places like Computer Graphics College here that there is no reason to look overseas for junior positions.

Don't loose hope of what you want, get your experience and keep applying, you never know unless you try.

Best of luck.

The actual act doesnt mention anything about Jan 1st 2005 as pointed out to me by a fellow sumean.

In fact it states in 3 places that the act will come into force on June 8th 2004 for a period of 3 months & 3 July 2004 and remain in force for a period of six months and 29th November 2001 and shall remain in force for a period of twelve months.

[?]

Also the names look pretty fishy:

SENIOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT KAUFMAN
JUSTICE GIUDICE, PRESIDENT
VICE PRESIDENT ROSS
COMMISSIONER SMITH
COMMISSIONER DEEGAN

Sounds awfully fishy to me.... OR it could be standard gov issue. [:O]

And yeah - I dont see any game devs listed in the " companies bound ny this act list "

Yeah interesting.. I don't know how or why gameslaves have associated this document with our industry.. theres no references at all to programmers that work in games...

needless to say.. it still dosent cover anybody else in the industry... ie.. animators modellers... artists etc...

seems like gameslaves a blowin alot of hot air

hmmmmmmmmm

I've mailed the web site and ask them to clarify. I've just done some fishing around myself and it sounds like it may well apply to game developers, well those of us in Victoria at least. Common rule means that an industry award isn't just restricted to a list of employers anymore - it applys to the IT industry as a whole.

http://www.airc.gov.au/alldocuments/PR953298.htm

"2.1 a common rule for the industry in Victoria and known as the Information Technology Industry (Professional Employees) Victorian Common Rule Declaration 2005.

1.4 the industry means the information technology industry which is defined as:

...

1.4.3 the design and manufacture of computer software;
...

1.4.6 computer programming; and
...

1.4.8 activities which are incidental, ancillary or complimentary to the activities set out above."

Good catch Zoot - although I can't see anything about "common rule" for anythings other than the ACT and Vic...

Apparently though,

"you can ask your Industrial Relations Commission to "rope in" your
studio to the award (ie the decision to comply with the award is made by the
government, not your boss, on the basis of whether the award looks like it
covers what company does). Unions usually do this on behalf of their members"

(from an email exchange with gameslaves.org)

Worth looking into?

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
Does anyone think this will affect the industry at all?

Am I sceptical about the source of this information? A bit.

If it is true, would I expect our employers to try and weasle their way out of it? Absolutely.

But best as I can tell, there's only one way to find out, and it starts with asking a flesh and blood lawyer. I mean, what have we got to lose?

Anyone with me here? If there's a few like-minded individuals, maybe we could get a lawyer along to an IGDA meeting and thrash it out there?

I know someone is looking into this, hopefully we'll get some answers soon!

This seems to be fact, there was an article about it in the paper yesterday or the day before. I'm a bit shaky on the details, but basically it seems that the victorian government has recently re-implemented something called "common rule" (which the kennet government abolished). What this means is that ALL employers are required to follow federal laws on awards etc. which includes compensation for overtime, and minimum hourly wages etc. There are different rules for different sectors (eg. different rules for IT workers and brickies), but all employers have to impelement the awards based on their attributed sector.
Something like that. If your employer isn't redoing your contract very soon, theres a good chance that either; your contract is already ok, or your employer is hoping you don't know :P
Anyway, hopefully someone who actually knows what they're talking about can give some decent details soon.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

This seems to be fact, there was an article about it in the paper yesterday or the day before. I'm a bit shaky on the details, but basically it seems that the victorian government has recently re-implemented something called "common rule" (which the kennet government abolished). What this means is that ALL employers are required to follow federal laws on awards etc. which includes compensation for overtime, and minimum hourly wages etc. There are different rules for different sectors (eg. different rules for IT workers and brickies), but all employers have to impelement the awards based on their attributed sector.
Something like that. If your employer isn't redoing your contract very soon, theres a good chance that either; your contract is already ok, or your employer is hoping you don't know :P
Anyway, hopefully someone who actually knows what they're talking about can give some decent details soon.
CYer, Blitz

this applies to other industries as well yeh - i was wondering why they were redoing our agreement at work (actually giving us holiday pay) - its in hospitality.. bout time some changes are getting made! (sorry if this was a bit off topic)

I thought I would bring some closure to this issue. It is for real. An industrial award is typically only applicable to companies/entities stated in the award. The company/entity needs to be roped into the award in some way for it to apply. The award mentioned in this forum has existed for a while and has several companies/entities listed. However the news is that the award has come into blanket force in Victoria; it doesn?t matter if the Victorian based company/entity has been roped-into the award or not. The Australian Industrial Relations Commission on the 18 November 2004 declared the ?Information Technology Industry (Professional Employees) Award 2001? as a common rule for the Information Technology industry in Victoria. The award covers: IT engineers, or general IT professionals (those who work in the IT industry with tasks that fall within the definition of IT industry in the Declaration). The Commission has this power under the Workplace Relations Amendment (Improved Protection for Victorian Workers) Act 2003 (a Commonwealth Act) and complimentary Victorian Legislation. This impacts Victorian companies with employees not subject to existing awards and importantly, employment terms must meet the awards. So, what does it mean ? it means the minimum weekly award wage for a programmer straight out of a three year Bachelor of IT degree, based on my understanding of the documents, is $663.50, or $34502, plus super. It also means there are minimum ?allowable matters? such as annual leave days and sick leave days.

Links:
Declaration
http://www.airc.gov.au/awardsandorders/html/PR953298.htm

Award
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/view.asp?docid=249170&query=&p…

I hope this information assists.

Cheers,

Tim Richards (game industry Lawyer) and Editor of GDAA Newsletter, and Gamenews.com.au.

Hi Tim

Thanks for explaining the whole thing. I had a little query tho.

Am I still covered by this award if I am not emloyed by an IT company but I work as an in-house prgrammer for a non-IT firm?

I am signing my new contract on Tuesday, so I need to now if I am lawfully entitled to $663.50 weekly :>

Thanks a bunch

Aida

Place where I work, IR Gurus, we are all under the Award now, had to sign the contract with a few amendments for acknowledgements about the game industry etc. These changes have to go through the government's approval system.

That job the are advertisting for may not be looked at until Jan, as well. I think it may end up working something like this:

Leave job posting open for two weeks
Sort through applications
Go on holidays for two weeks
Get back to work sometime in Jan
Contact applicants

Okie then

It was just that I did cold calling about 3 weeks, ago, and Torus, was one place that asked me to send them my demo

Thanks any way Jacana

I can only guess :) But with holidays coming up at the end of this month, and most companies (even games) closing down for a few weeks, I think that may be the reason why.

Just don't give up. Make sure you send them an email around the 7th and see how things are going - or even call!

I wouldn't fuss over it too much. Companies don't tend to hire much over Christmas period. Also takes a little while after NewYear to start thinking about hiring.

Also the reason you were told January is probably because they were going to start looking at recruiting in January anyway and hadn't advertised yet.

I think it's more co-incidence you happened to call them a few weeks before they were going to advertise, and it's nothing personally against you.

Besides, companies do have a right to seek out the best candidate for a job.

Relax and enjoy Christmas & New-Year and then hopefully u'll get an interview in Jan/Feb and you can woo them over with your charm!

Best of luck!

Australian game companies (comapnies in general?) will often advertise a position with no intention of actually filling it for several months...i guess it gives them plenty of time to sort through etc. Sometimes jobs will be advertised without a position even being available (eg. someone may be possibly thinking about leaving the company then doesn't, so no need to replace).
Last year, Blue Tongue advertised several jobs, and about a week or so after advertising them, the HR person who deals with the job applications went overseas (on business?) for a couple months haha...at least thats what they told me, maybe they were jsut trying to let me down easy :P
But yeah, as others have said, don't feel rejected because job hunting is likely to be quite slow at any company over the christmas period.
CYer, Blitz

In contrast, I've just had my fourth interview without offer for a low-level contract position with one company. I've never heard of a company investing so much time in hiring before, especially for someone on contract!

If they're reading this, I'm worth it though :)

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

In contrast, I've just had my fourth interview without offer for a low-level contract position with one company. I've never heard of a company investing so much time in hiring before, especially for someone on contract!

Well, I've had this happen in the IT industry. Was brought back for 4 interviews, including a 3-4 hour psych test (whatever they call it).. you know , spatial matching, sequential predictions, general IQ.. etc. I was told at the end of the whole process they didn't have a role for my skills just yet, and I would be kept on file.. I was SOOO Pissed off for having wasted my business and personal time. I didn't really care though, I had 2 other companies with offers on the table, and took the other positition that afternoon with the other company being very patient about investigating my choice.

Don't worry though, as you gain more skills and get more experience you will land jobs more often than not. In the last 6 years out of all jobs I've applied for and managed to get an interview for I have been offered every single one (some even without interview).

Thanks Everone, this has put my mind at ease

LOL just posted the same message in the general section ! [:D]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html

An update

Non related fields for the most part, a lot of unskilled jobs. Laboring, cashier, milk run, caf? work. I had a lot of theses types of jobs until I (arguably) became competent enough at illustration to find work doing that, shortly after I got games industry work.

Pantmonger

After Uni, I worked in the Telecomms industry as a software engineer for 3 years doing cell network management software before getting into the games industry as a programmer at the age of 26.

-kul

Worked as a Graphic Deisgner for several sign / advertising companies for 5 years, then headed up a sales team for 6 months for a couple of solar powered products, before going to qantm to persue my interest in games [:)]

- Lead graphic designer for 4 years
- Travelled the arse out of Europe for a year and a bit
- studied at Qantm for a year
- did some work experience as a pixel artist
- worked as a lab supervisor and in production at qantm for 6 months
- then got the industry gig! [:)]

I was fresh and new and started working in the industry at the age of 28 give or take a couple of months. This was about a year ago. I dont think age matters that much.

Pantmonger

Same with me, a spritely 28, actually I got the call on my birthday. But maybe my boyish goodlooks helped....cough. [:P]

I think Pantmonger got a gig because he wasn't wearing panties in his interview, didn't ya, you saucy minx! lol [;)]

Seriously though, sometimes older employees have worked in other fields and have proven they can handle the stressfull workload while alot of younger employees may have alot of steam and new ideas but they haven't all had the chance to prove themselves, and you could argue younger people are less set in there ways and easier to mould, it really depends on what the company is after.

But in the end age really isn't all that valid, its more about a balance of skills, experience and attitude in my opinion.

I was about 26 or so when I embarked on developing Sumea, in the hope of getting my foot in the game development door at some stage, and away from design and web development. I'm 29 now, and I'm not even a step closer to that goal. I've ended up doing more design and web development than ever before, and absolutely zilch on game art.
I'm probably at a crossroads at the moment on whether I should just stop what I'm doing now (most of my time is spent on Sumea) and focus entirely on building some sort of game art portfolio, or head back into web design where i should find a job much easier.

If you're around 30, it'll definately be tougher getting that junior/entry position, where the employer isn't hoping to pay that much for a salary. But in any other case, your work should speak much louder than your age.

Personally, I feel that with every year that passes, it'll just get harder and harder for someone like myself to get there.

Im 24 and feel nice and young now that all the old soldiers replied to this one before me [:P]
I have to agree with Souri's point regarding the salary demands being higher for an older person as they are more than likely at the 'buying a house' stage or maybe even 'having children' stage or even both [:O]

For an entry level position paying 30k - 35k its going to be tough with all that. So it would be a big gamble and something you really REALLY want to do and have the time to put into.

Ultimately, and this is what i have picked up over the course of 18 odd months building my team, is that what Dean mentions about attitude, skills and experience ( to Kalescent studios thats in order of preference ) A balance of the last 2 are fine, but having a good attitude is paramount, at least to me it is [:P]

Theres a certain element that i may as well call the X-Factor when looking for an employee / contractor, and it can be had and found in all people somewhere, its hard to describe but its basically the instant likeable feeling you get when meeting someone, and thats about it. Age doesnt really come into it at all IMO not from an employers point of view anyway.

I'd like to think that there isnt an age thingy going on in the industry.. I made it in at 27 after seriously trying for the past 4 or so years... It was only after I got enough work together I feel... As for wages well I'd always like to get more.. but as I see it.. this whole thing is going to be a life long adventure of learning and all that good stufff.. The only problem with age I guess is that you also have to compete with younger and younger people who are as equally talented.. the thing with young people is they tend to be a bit flighty.. easily change job for more money.. or they think they can do better.. where as the older .. like me.. are more likely to be loyal etc.. In reality at the end of the day you need a strong portfolio that covers alot of different bases.. leadership is an important thing too that needs to be emphasised with age.. ya know? still my situation and everyone elses are different... i believe that everyone has equal oppotunity and its important not to let age scare ya.. cause everyone gets old eventually.

Thanks for all the replies guys, very informative. It?s pretty much what I assumed, that skill, attitude and experience (of some kind) is what counts, but I just had a thought that possibly I was wasting my time with big ambitions of making games professionally. Though now that I know some of your stories, I feel like my dream does have some basis in reality [:P]

I?m 27 and realistically I think I will be at least 30 by the time I?m ready to try for a major studio (still have 3 years of planned study/formal training ahead of me!). Even though I know it will be difficult, it?s good to know that it?s quite possible for a 30 year old to break in.

And I suppose if the enthusiasm, determination and business sense (and courage) is there, it?s always possible to get into professional games development by starting up your own studio. I guess if someone wants in bad enough, there would always be a way, regardless of age.

I am with all the other old farts in the thread :)

My "official" first gig in games I started at the age of 27.

For what it is worth, I have been doing a lot of online game administration for MUD's and such since about 1996 ( so since 19 / 20 age wise ).

I have actually found that all that work now is actually quite looked at in my resume. Mind you it is more so there are padding for my 6 month stint instead of what got me the job.

Just do it!

:)

Age isn't really a problem, your circumstances are. If you have a wife and kids, employers will consider that you may have more difficulty working long hours. If you have a mortgage or some other loan to pay off, you may require a higher wage, and/or will have to quit if times get a little tough financially.
Also, what Malus said about younger guys being easier to mould is also true, especially as projects get larger, employers want the same coding or artistic standards to prevail throughout the product. However, i would see this as one of those "tie-breaker" employment issues. ie. an employer will only really take this into account when making a decision between two prospects that are equal in all other departments.
CYer, Blitz

Blitz:
There are alot of people who are married with kids and a mortgage at work, I don't think that is or should be an issue too anyone except the employee and their families, they do just as many hours as the unmarried etc.

I have to add that although when I stated younger people 'may' be easier to mould it was a generalisation, not an age specific area either, lots of younger people are pigheaded and stubborn, thinking of most teenagers I know, they think they know everything, I know I did lol. [:P]

The point is age shouldn't be relevant to employers, its not a young persons industry as people tend to think, it just the hours etc may be easier on younger people who tend to have less responsiblities like families.

----------------
This is off topic but I would like to hear about what people think about the view some developers and the media take on our industry.

It seems that there is this strange social believe thats perpetrating the myth that all industry people are chubby, pimple faced, 21 yr olds who have no social graces and bad hygiene, or geeks to be specific. [:P]

Sometimes it feels as if we are thought of as children and to a large degree games themselves are thought to be a substandard form of art and/or entertainment.

I for one believe its time to see the industry and its workers treat themselves and be treated by others as the mature, dedicated, professional and passionate adults that they are.

The geek tag needs to go in my opinion, we don't see it as often in the film industry and although its a different field there are some definate correlations between Games and CG films in many areas.

What does everyone else think?

I made a thread in the general discussion section so as to not take over this one:

[url]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2450[/url]

Malus, just read your few posts about the topic as the way the industry is seen. Just like to know first off, where did you get the idea about the topic? News or something because it sounds like it hit a saw spot or something because you are talking rather passionatly about it [^]

No one where I work is chubby (Some of the guys I know in the industry are better build then alot of people who arn't), pimple faced, and I think there are only 2 21 years olds (me being one of them). Plus we are all pretty social, going out to clubs and pubs etc. Not sure about others but me and the other 21 year old are open about working in the games industry and haven't been rejected because of it.

If your honest and people see your as normal as everyone else then this "social myth" will go away and we can all live happily ever after... [:D]

quote:Originally posted by Malus

Blitz:
There are alot of people who are married with kids and a mortgage at work, I don't think that is or should be an issue too anyone except the employee and their families, they do just as many hours as the unmarried etc.

This thread was specifically about "getting into the industry", not someone who has already been in the industry for a while. I would guess that most of those working with you who are married/have kids/have mortgage did not join the company with such baggage as a junior programmer/artist on 30k/yr, more likely they have been around for a while, or were somehow able to garner a more financially comfortable position in the company. Either that or they are lucky :)

quote:
The point is age shouldn't be relevant to employers, its not a young persons industry as people tend to think, it just the hours etc may be easier on younger people who tend to have less responsiblities like families.

As i said, age isn't relevant, circumstances are.
CYer, Blitz

Quick note, I was married when I started.

Pantmonger

Actually a few did start with "such baggage" I think. [:P]

It all depends on how determined you are. Sometimes one's biggest obstacle is oneself. My sister was 27 when she got into the IT industry. After 4 years, she is now the IT manager of a major IT distribution company.

Just don't give up and regret about it one day! It's rather latter than never[;)]

Pants: Didn't you get married 9 days AFTER you started work? :P

cheers

Yes, but I assumed you knew it was on the cards, I thought the ?I will need a few days off at the start for my wedding? might have given it away. :P

Pantmonger

palantir, there is hope for you :)...read on

I didn't start playing games until I was 30, yes 30!

I'd operated a business unrelated to games for 15 years, but decided I needed a change and I really wanted to get into game development, so I sold the business (at this stage I was 36) and concentrated on getting my 3D skills up to a level where I thought I might have a shot at scoring a job as an artist in the game industry... I won't go into the details of getting a job because that's a whole other story.

Anyway I did get a job at a Melbourne game studio (by this time I was 38) so I packed up the family and moved down to Melbourne where I worked for a few years... it was difficult, especially having to support a family on the salary offered, which was around 1/3 of what I'd previously earnt with my own business.

But it's payed off, I now have my own company in the game industry which is growing, and I'm a 44 year old kid having some fun doing what I love... it's never too late :)

Awesome - that?s the kind of inspirational story I was hoping to hear! [:D]

*whimpers* YOUR ALL OLD FARTS!!! (meaning your all wiser then me and this 18 year old needs a reality cheek...maybe a face slaping to XP)

my nieve plain is to finish year 12 with a folio, get into aie melbounre.. while theref or two years practice my 3D art skill in and OUT of the class room. makes a artist portfolio and get into the games industry by 21....

i think i can do it. i hope i can do it. im praying to god alia satin that i can do it XD.

well see in time.

That?s certainly doable. But I think the main thing is just to stay enthusiastic, even if it ends up taking longer then expected. Much more important then getting into the industry ASAP is developing and keeping a deep love for the art. You don?t want to burn out by 30, which seems old when your in high school, but trust me, you?ll be there in no time wondering what happened to your youth! [:P]. Hmm, now I do sound like an old fart...

At least you know where you want to go. I didn?t work it out until I was 26!

I like to remember the average statistic: most game artists take 4 to 6 years of serious study to get to the necessary level.

^^very true indeed. i think enthusasem isnt a proablem. i hav epasionse to and 3 years time to train myself up...

in 2D art terms of deen drawing seroiusly for about 5 years (serious as in being sitting down and devoting 10-15 hours a week to drawing.)

my skill i consider is at a mid point...the point where your art no longer looks somewhat retarded (you dont think that then but when you look back onto it you get a good chuckle)
However...its not really sellable.. just a year or so from it though^^ im happy that i got some photoshop skills and stuff and im thinking about doing side project when at the AIE to do a 2D/3D animation.

i try to think realisticly..meaning i look at my art now and say. "if i was developing a game..whould i hire me?.. at the moment its a no..but i'm already working at it and hopefully if i push and keep putting in that extra mile i'll be able to get in after AIE graduation... 3 years a long time^^

hehe just keep practicing! It's possible, that's for sure, I got a job a month ago and I'm 20 yrs old. I've worked pretty hard to get where I am, but I have to say, it was very much a matter of being in the right place and the right time. I wasn't the ideal candidate for the job (they wanted 3d artist but I'm a 2d artist), somehow things worked out.

awsome mate^^ took a sqizz at your artwork to..very nice stuff.. lots of skill. they made a good choise in hiring you.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

*whimpers* YOUR ALL OLD FARTS!!!

I wouldn't freak! The original post here was how old was too old to get into games! Me I got in at 28 but the youngest person in our office is 21! There's room for everyone so long as you have a passion for it!

Well if all goes well after Tuesday I will be in at 15. :D Why does that look so bad though, I am very close to 16 but it just seems to be that border between being 'mature' and still a young kid. I don't see how people look at it like that. I mean I tell someone I am 15 and the experience I have and they are always going "Wow, so young and so much experience for your age." I just don't look at it like that, I see myself as someone going into the workforce with a great motivation and trying my hardest to get the proper education.

I mean I just got out of doing Grade 11. (Yes I was pushed up a year in Primary School) so everyone looks at me funny when they think I am in grade 9 *sigh*

But same applies to older people, 32 is the age where you have either settle down or really want to. You have pretty much been where you want to and gotten the experience you want, so why should it be a problem getting a job? You would (We hope) have a better resume than most.

Well im 36 now and ive been doing this for a bit over 2-1/2 years
now. Thats working out how PhotoShop works going back to school
at the AIE for 2 years and I had no ider what 3D,s MAX was.
At this time im still not sure where,when,or if,ill get a full time job. But like all of you, well all of us we love what we can do, and we love it when we get good feed back be it 2d or 3d work, We push to get to where some ells is at with there work. And when we get
to that point we push again. Im Sure I dont need to tell you how much I would love to go back to when I was 15 and know what i know now.

But when it comes down to it I dont
think its if your too young or too old
or if your good or not at what you do at this time or not.

but when its your time it will happen.

Even I dont like to say It but it just takes time.

I am seeing being so young as a good thing. I know the direction I must head and I am going there.
So if all things go to plan, I will have my grade 12 cert at the age of 16 (Maybe even just 17). Then I will be able to do my desired course at QANTM and that is another year course so I will have that when I am 18.

So hopefully I will have the qualifications in hand by the time I am just 18 :D.

(I): Thats a tough cookie. From what i can gather, a fair amount of mobile phone game art is created by the programmers and designers themselves. Generally i think this is because sometimes the budgets of these games are very small and cannot exactly hire staff.

Pay wise i would presume would be rather low, if not any at all until the game actually begins to sell, quite alot of games on mobiles are from indie developers. Mind you, if you were hired by say Sega to produce a mobile phone game im sure you would get payed decently (Although i could be wrong).

(II): Freelancing can land you some great cash to a certain degree. But first i would suggest beginning off by offering art skills and such for free, and of course i speak of the magical wonder of mod teams. Join a mod team to gain a reputation and your name known. I would suggest only one or two teams, you dont want to put yourself under too much pressure and stress since you are just starting out. But yeah, get your name known in the semi-professional field of modding and you can probably get your foot in the door of a semi-famous freelancing artist.

Pay wise i would say that you could probably establish around $15,000 annually for starters (After a few years of working with mod teams etc... perhaps even creating a small team of freelance artists?) and then work your way up from that, then again i could be wrong so dont say i am accurate on any of this information [:p].

Anyway, hopefully i provided a tiny bit of help [:p].
Are you by any chance thinking of becoming a freelance artist?

Cheers,

Tom

Thank you very much for your response.

"Are you by any chance thinking of becoming a freelance artist?"
I am hoping to work on a full-time basis with a mobile company in australia but I didn't find any on the internet so far :(
I am working as freelance for the graphics of 2 games so far and hope to get a full-time contract by next year.

Thanks again :)

There are a few Mobile Game developers in Australia.. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopersprofile.asp?developer=59"]Viva La Mobile[/url] in NSW is one... [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopersprofile.asp?developer=78"]Jumbuck Entertainment[/url] is a big one, they're in Melbourne. I'm sure there are a few more.

As for salary, I have no idea. I'd probably use the Gambit salary survey as a reference, where Junior Artists/Animators get between 30-45k..

Hopefully everyone works out well for you Zephyr, goodluck and remember to post updates on your progress in the industry [:)].

Thanks Souri, I've been in contact with one of the two mentionned company a while ago but the position has already been filled.

I'm in contact with a company who are asking me how much I would charge for designing the concepts for an action/adventure mobile game- how much do you think such task would cost? Since a mobile game is quite cheap, can you give me some advice on that please?

Perhaps check around with the local game companies. Seems like a lot of international companies are starting to do mobile games..

ie EA, THQ, NamCo.. etc

Other thing is get a company together, make some portfolios and start posting to mobile forums for freelance work.

[:D] Hi, I'm a programmer with the opposite problem. I have everything I need except the artwork for a windows game.

I'm on a carers pension at the moment in Australia and have quite a bit of time on my hands. The sort of game I seek to make is a classic 2d shooter but with a few nice things added. Problem is... the artwork will make or break it. I know photoshop very well but still doesn't help if I'm just not artistic enough.

The game engine I have is built on 3d hardware so can do scaling, rotations, alpha blending, tinting and all sorts of effects. It has a good particle engine so is capable of vapour trails, exhaust, explosions, etc. I have all the elements like pixel perfect collisions all handled but no cool graphics.

I want to make a name for myself and if you or any other artist is interested and would like their art in a "showcase" type game please contact me. I have some "concept sprites" I can pass on and would be open to any other suggestions.

My web site is http://www.hoek.inkblue.net- I have 2 freeware products I'm hammering at the moment and the site is slowly gaining momentum. The "Tech Demo" in one of the download sections was written by me and shows what's possible in the game engine.

I have a semi-complete version of the game from a few years ago. I would like to re-vamp it greatly and move to the new engine I have.

Basically I wanted a "gory" shoot them up where the aliens hate being hit and dodge a bit when you settle under them. Near misses result in the alien getting stirred up and attacking. Aliens get scorch marks and explode with wings and crap going everywhere. When they hit your ship... they explode and do damage to it. The ship starts looking worse and it starts handling badly, looks a wreck and smokes like a car burning more oil than petrol. Wounded aliens that aren't finished off eventually die and just drift around in the way.

I want to put a bit of AI into the aliens and some physics into the game itself.

Some of the aliens are nearly fully transparant and can only be seen with a light on the front of the ship.

If you have an idea for other elements, I'm open to suggestions.

Regards, Dean B. White.

PS - I have attached a single sprite sample which I have converted from 32 bit PNG format. When I re-do these they will be made so individual pieces are re-contructed. ie. Head, arms, legs, wings. This gives more flexability when rendering and will allow bits to be "exploded".

[img]icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Download Attachment: [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/hoeks revenge/20041031102355_sprite1.gif"]sprite1.gif[/url]
12.05 KB