Industry and Education

"Game Development" is a very broad topic. What exactly do you want to do? Art, design, programming?

I can only speak from a programmer's point of view.

I honestly don't believe that there is any benefit whatsoever in doing a game-specific course. Do something more generally applicable, like Software Engineering or Computer Science.

The games industry is hard to break into. In Australia at the moment the supply of skilled game developers far exceeds the demand of the industry. Having a general degree will make it easy to get another job while you work on your game aspirations.

As for actually getting a game job, your portfolio will sell you much more than your degree. Invest the time and effort in building the requisite game skills in your own time. Make games the entire time you're studying. When you graduate you should hopefully have solid development skills from your studies and all the requisite game development skills from your personal work. You'll have a lot more opportunities available to you than if you go the game-only route.

i meant programing field,but my question about Academia is still remained,though ur idea is different ."I honestly don't believe that there is any benefit whatsoever in doing a game-specific course"
thank u any way for ur helpful comments.

My apologies. I didn't realise that there was actually a training institution called "Academia".

Still, my general opinion remains. The game programmers I've worked who have standard programming degrees often did a better job than those who had only done game courses.

Best of luck!

Ok,thank u for ur useful advice.

I'm currently in my 2nd year at the AIE (and doing 2 courses). While I am not doing the film course I do have friends in there and all the AIE students keep each other well informed of what they are studying/doing.

About a week ago the film students showed off an 8 minute film that they had just submitted to a competition and it was very impressive. They spent the first term (roughly) learning specific film techniques for art (the 1st year is a combined class of game and film students so you don't get all of what you need in that time) which they then used to plan a big film project.

That lead to the 8 minute film which took about 2 terms (a bit less actually) to make and was very impressive. Now, for the last few months left in their course, they are doing portfolio work. That basically means they are all doing their own short film(s) to stick in their portfolio and hopefully get a job at the end of the year. The students also did a short CIT course about films (not sure of the details) but this was an extra cost ontop of the course (I think it was a 10 week course and cost about $500). They are also about to start a composting course (again about 10 weeks and about $600). This is simply to round their skills off and introduce them to other film techniques (not just 3d stuff).

As for costs, CIT subsidies the film course so for memory, if you pay upfront, it's about $5,000 for the 1st year and $4000 for the 2nd. If you take fee help (Hecs/Studying loan) then you pay about $20-24,000 (can't quite remember the exact amount). Your allowed up to $85,000 for fee help and you only start paying it off once you earn over $45,000 (and it goes up in a linear fashion). This applies to all higher education courses with fee help.

As for job opportunities. AIE has film grads in TV studios in all of the capital cities, there are one or two grads in Animal Logic and other film studios. I know of at least 5 ex AIE students who have gone to study further in Canada and land jobs in some nice studios overseas. Also there is plenty of incentive and support at the AIE to help get indie studios up and running.

One last thing I will say about AIE, it's not perfect (nothing ever is). You will get a decent eduction BUT you will get much more out of it if you do extra work at home (portfolio work) and jump on any opportunities that arise (short film competitions, 11 second animation club... etc). So long as you keep pushing yourself and keep expanding and improving your skills you should be able to land a job eventually (it may take some time but keep persisting).

The best thing you can do is come to an AIE open day (or even just drop by) and speak to students/teachers about the course.

Hi Timmy,

I'm a first year in Canberra this year, in the games course. I've been really disappointed by the school, but I hear the first year art students will be getting a much more awesome teacher next year, so lucky them!

- What Chris said on the price. With CIT payments, you can pay all in one hit or in monthly/weekly instalments. That's mostly managed through CIT, and it's quick and painless :)
If you're going for the games course for second year, keep in mind that CIT *doesn't* subsidise second year, so you'll be paying FEE HELP regardless for that.

- You get free education licenses for 3DS MAX and Maya as part of the course. This year the first year assignments were animation, character modelling, a little bit of texturing and environment modelling. We did one teamwork game level design assignment using Maya and UT Editor, and right now we're in the middle of a bunch of team animation assignments - I say animation, but we're doing modelling and texturing for that as well.
We also got a single-item booklist which includes a textbook on Maya, but you don't ever actually use it over the year. There aren't any readers or textbooks for the course itself, though there were very handy design briefs for assignments at the start of the year (the teachers seem to have forgotten about these come June though :( ). Also, like QANTM, a bunch of the written teaching materials are PDFs on the sharedrive that you can find online anyway, although occasionally you'll find one written by an AIE teacher.

AIE is very much a technical school, and the focus is on 3D. It is not an art school, and I've found that you will learn what the assignment requires of you and not much else. You should learn enough to get a basic understanding of 3D, even from first year.

Chris - on the pushing yourself - that's really true of any field. :P

In my experience, follow your heart and instinct. No, the industry isn't stable right now. However, I don't think many industries are right now. Main thing is to never have regrets. Choosing the 'safest' option isn't always the best option IMO.

I graduated the same degree (Game Design major though) Last year and it's been rough finding work. It's frustrating how much effort it's taken, but I know my sanity wouldn't last if I wasn't doing something I love. So I agree with P.J; safest option isn't always best.

Go the business degree.
Once the childish enthusiasm has worn off you'll be wanting real money and prospects so you can take time off and not go near a god darn computer.
Everything is more stable than the computer games industry plus your in the wrong country.

+1. This is the advice I would give my younger self, if that were possible.

I'd continue on with the Business Degree, assuming you are getting something out of it. In my experience there aren't nearly enough people in video games with necessary qualifications in business/marketing, which probably goes a long way to explain why the state of the industry is so bad at the moment.

Getting a job right now is extremely tough even if you have your foot in the door and plenty of experience. Perhaps you could have a go at making and selling iPhone or Android games in your spare time until things pick up on the job front.

Mate

You've got a Qantm games qualification under your belt, and now you're studying now a business course. Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If games is your passion, go with it ... having yourself a business qualification as well can only help (IMHO).

The commercial games landscape is indeed just that - Commercial. Every company developing games for sale needs someone with these skills. If you've got a grip on marketing you could very well score yourself a gig as a Community Manager or something similar. It is of course one thing to post an app to iTunes. It's another thing entirely to get your game noticed (just have a chat to Firemint or Halfbrick - their attention to marketing is *massive*).

Games + Marketing = Good.

Good luck!

Thank you for all the replies guys :)

1) Luck and perseverance. Be prepared to move interstate. It can't hurt to try and apply overseas too. Unfortunately, "Designer" is quite a tough gig to land and there are not as many pure Designer roles going around as the traditional programmer, artists and production roles. Pretty much everyone doubles as a designer in some part in my experience (whether this is good or bad, I still am unsure).
2) Flash sounds fine, whatever you are comfortable with. Try to commit to an idea though and flesh it out a little bit.
3) Not necessarily but it can't hurt to learn how to use a variety of different tools/programs. Flash is a good start. If you don't already, try to get acquainted with at least one 2D and 3D art packages (like Photoshop and 3D Studio Max).

Make games. Make any type of games on any platform. What you're good at will become the focus. Level design, gameplay mechanics, or whatever you focus on - that will determine how people judge you. The term 'game designer' means a million things and is the subject of much debate. What is it precisely that you design?

Stop worrying about getting your foot in the door and make things. Things that make you valuable, that will make it impossible for people to turn you down.

You know AS3, so make more AS3 games. Put up a website. Comment on others' games. Immerse yourself. Be part of the community. Do small, fast collaborations along the way. Other software will help definitely, but focus on design if you're a designer.

Seriously, though - the industry is hurting. There are no jobs. There's only jobs if you're good.

The first question I'd ask is, do you really want to make games/interactive entertainment above all the other options you have? If not, it's not worth the hassle. If so, go for it though.

My advice in approaching getting a design job is to, well, give up on that idea in the short-medium term. Your chances of landing a game design role as an entry-level position are extraordinarily slim. It's possible you might be able to get a level design role, but those are getting harder to land as the job market floods, and that's likely to continue for a number of years. QA is still an entry-level position, but 'entry-level' doesn't mean what it once did as you're going to be up against experienced professionals and accomplished indies, all desperate to be part of the industry.

So that's the situation as I see it anyway. There are a few paths open to you, depending on your interests, proficiencies and resources. The first, and most widely recommended, is to do independent development. Make games, lots of them. These won't get you a game-design role (in all likelihood), but if you do some good work over numerous projects it'll give you the edge on Level Design, QA or Associate Producer roles. The lovely catch is, however, that everyone who sticks around is doing this and, to really stand out, you basically need to do something so awesome you don't need or may not want the job.

Which brings me to the perma-indie route. There have always been 'indies' and joining or forming a new independent studio is a legitimate route, but it carries a lot of risk. I won't go into a full analysis of the pros and cons, but it's not guaranteed money and it's a LOT of work, especially if you're looking at forming your own company. It's something to think very carefully about.

You might also consider further study which, if you choose the right institutions, might be of some minimal benefit but would more importantly allow you to undertake more projects. I can't really recommend that route though. Basically, not that anyone wants to tell you this, your chances are shit. They are for most of us, even a lot of the experienced professionals who have lost their job. In my opinion, and this is a very subjective opinion, you're better off forging your own path independently if you can afford to take the risk. No matter what you do, completing projects, even small ones, and networking are the keys.

On a side note of skill development: Programming is a HUGE plus. While I personally don't believe it necessary, some people, even in HR, believe it IS necessary. It's a huge boost if joining a smaller team too. Having experience with scripting and tools such as Unreal for level design or Project for Production are pluses. Familiarity with Scrum can be of benefit, but not the half-baked versions you get taught at universities.

Thanks for the words of wisdom guys, I really appreciate it. Looks like I better start bunkering down and focusing on the projects I started.

Well I'm working at GameLoft now, and they have been hiring junior game designers.

What they have typically done when they have hired a game designer is they look at the projects you are currently working on. i.e. one of the juniors has done a fairly successful command & conquer mod in a more up to date engine, better graphics etc.

Start getting a portfolio together.

Also programmer at a basic level is useful for a level designer tbh, but consider that most programming involved would be some sort of scripting language like lua etc at most commercial games company.

Don't be afraid to head overseas if you want to work commercially in the games industry also. Australia is only just starting to recover from a nasty games dev recession.

I disagree with you completely on some of your points just based on my experiences. As I mentioned in my subsequent post that companies do hire juniors but there needs to be content/projects for them to see. i.e. most of the juniors have done their own iPhone dev, or mod development etc.

Some companies now don't see QA as a entry position any more. They want people who are skilled at games QA. Some companies deliberately tell you during the meeting this is not going to be a stepping stone position. If you want to be a level designer, apply for the positions.

Also as you mentioned in you post, there are a lot of level designers compared to talented programmers. It tends to be a flooded market so you got to make yourself stand out. Stand out in a good way anyway :)

I do agree with your programming point. It is handy for a level designer to know python, lua or some scripting languages. Also obviously with building a portfolio etc.

G'day Marty,

First off congratulations for completing a masters of creative industries. I hope you had the opportunity to work alongside some passionate teachers and fellow students.

First rule of thumb to keep in mind with becoming a game designer is that there is no real right and wrong way to approach working towards this career. Some ways will take longer then others but as long as you're learning then don't let it stop you.

As a game designer myself, my personal advice to you are as fellows:

- You are almost always wrong: As a designer you need to keep a very open mind and accept that all your ideas and designs are revisable and will change over a games development. Always be open to criticism from your team-mates and peers. Always revise and keep your revisions up to date. If your a designer who writes documents then create a new version once every few weeks so you can see how you're progressing.

- Defend what you think is right: When you feel justified in an element of a design then explain to people as to why you think this is so. I've found in my experience that when you defend a design decision with logic and experience the argument against it fades away. Of course you should always scrutinise the design element before defending it. [ie: You are almost always wrong.]

- Design what you love: Our industry is huge now and design is specialising by genre and platform. Designing a game for a social network like Facebook is very different to designing a console game. Ask yourself what genres and platforms you love to play and work towards that. When you can demonstrate an intimate knowledge of that genre to a studio who works on that said genre then you will be a valuable asset to them. If you love genres with large and complex design methods then dissect them down to core elements and gain an intimate knowledge of it.

- Make games: Either alone or in a team you should always be making games. Video games, board games, RPGs all are valid in your design development. I personally suggest that you start small. Games that could be made in 3 to 6 months are great for learning experiences. Work on making a single gameplay element polished to a diamond shine rather then trying make 6 elements mesh together poorly. I tell you this from personal experience.

- Play games: Don't ever take the stance of "Working to much to play games." As a designer is it part of your duty to play the shit if of games you love. To consider why these games appeal to you and how you could improve upon them.

Most of all understand that the journey IS the destination. Have fun working with creative people and making the best nuggets of fun and joy you can. When you love what you do and do it very well then the job will find you.

But! My wuffling aside:

1) How do you get a foot in the door in the games industry when they say you need previous experience?

- "Make" experience. Make games and make them fun and polished.

2) What are some recommended platforms for a rather new designer to work on?

- Any platform that allows you to cheaply develop on. PC digital download and iOS are viable at this time.

3) Do i need to have a coder/modeler background in order to get a job within the industry?

- No. But it does help when you have additional skills to bring to the table. This can be anything from artistic skills, programming skills, project management skills, marketing experience, anything that shows people that you are a valuable member to a team.

Also keep in mind that an employer will hire you for your BEST skill set. So if your level design skills are more polished then your high-level game design skills then you will be hired as a level designer.

I'm sure the contract he's signed says that the company owns all his work inside the computer games domain (and possibly beyond) unless they specifically say otherwise. Now, you could challenge that contract in a variety of ways, and I have no idea how that might fall out. For that you'd need to go see a real lawyer, hourly rate and all.

I can tell you that "It doesn't seem fair," doesn't generally constitute a legal defense.

If he has it in writing that they were okay with his original status, there may be a challenge to the change in status. I doubt it though - my guess is they're entirely in their rights. Certainly that's what most big studio contracts look like these days - they own everything you do, without exceptions.

Has your friend got a contract? Read it. If it's not in there, it's fine. Some contracts have anti-competitive clauses, some do not.

There are a number of issues to be considered here. His contract is not the 'be all and end all'. If his employer has stated in writing that he cannot produce content of his own, then this may be conisdered a lawful direction of his employer, and as such could any failure to comply with this direction could result in disciplinary action.

It may be worthwile having your friend request the reasons for the decision in writing. He should also be aware that if he continues to produce work when he has been directed not to, then proceeds to make money from it, he may find himself having to pay some, if not all of that money, plus court costs, to his employer, as he may not necessarily own the intellectual property.

It is a legal minefield, one that I would advise him to keep out of.

Just reading around, and is there a distinction between it being a hobby and it generating revenue? ie The work he does doesn't generate revenue for him, he volunteers as it's not his day-job and he can only put in limited hours in his free time. It does generate revenue for other people though - does this matter? He does it as it's enjoyable and a hobby and is why he works in the game industry in the first place. Not sure, as you say it's a confusing area. There is a contract, I guess I can suggest he read that and take it from there. Legally, when I say it seems 'unfair' of course that isn't a legal defence, I wouldn't venture that as one. What I mean is the law is there to protect interests and rights, and so in this instance it seems to be being abused to limit someones rights without justification.

Difficult situation to be in.

If the original contract between your friend and their employer did not prohibit them from doing outside work , the employer is not allowed to change this clause without your friends agreement. A party to a contract is not allowed to change the terms unilaterally, nor can they threaten your friend for not agreeing to new terms.

Even if the original contract did prohibit external work and your friend asked for permission and this was granted it could be held to be a valid variation to the original agreement. (these things do not always have to be written)

In the real world however, arguing too strongly about these types of issues may lead to your friend having a harder time at work or suddenly becoming and indy developer full time.

Bottom line is: How important is this issue to them? What are they prepared to risk to resolve it?

No they are not allowed to prevent you doing anything in your spare time unless it's negatively impacting on their business some way.

I've been through this situation myself before.

Sounds like their employer is a total asshole having some power trip.

"Just reading around, and is there a distinction between it being a hobby and it generating revenue?"

No, there's not.

"What I mean is the law is there to protect interests and rights, and so in this instance it seems to be being abused to limit someones rights without justification."

That's just saying "It's unfair," in slightly different words.

If you tell us what studio it is, we'll have a pretty good idea what the contract looks like. If it's any studio owned by a multinational US based company, then there's no way their contract doesn't take all rights to everything he does - regardless of whether its for profit or not.

You're wrong in both fact and law.

Obviously you haven't read the Copyright Act.

are you a lawyer, can you link this statement to something that backs you up, cause if not then your view is just as valid or invalid as all other would-be lawyers (at least most people said to go seek professional advice before coming up with drivel like yours).

lol, this is meant to the guy I've replied to, not the comment directly above me; also, just because it's a contract doesn't automatically make it a LEGAL contract, we've actually gone through this in uni when we had the business law course

oh so you are suggesting the Copyright Act is drivel now is it?

I presume you're referring to the section that declares "Under Australian law, where an employee is the author, the first owner of copyright is the employer"

Or maybe not, given that would contradict your position.

So, there's two points here :

1 - Does the contract declare that any work done (even out of hours, even on separate projects) belongs to the employer?
2 - Is that clause enforcable.

I'm going to presume that the answer to point 1 is yes, given that's generally the case with game developer contracts in Australia. If anyone would like to call out specific companies that do or do not have that clause, go crazy. I know for a fact there's a similar clause in all EA and THQ contracts. I presume the same is true of other major companies, and not the case for small indies. Everyone at Firemint will be signing a new, EA style contract shortly, for example.

As for 2, while it is true that a contract isn't necessarily legal simply by virtue of being a contract (for example, you can't sign away your right to sue someone for criminal negligence, no matter what ski-lift operators would like you to think). HOWEVER, unless someone can point to an example of this (very common) clause being determined illegal in Australia, it's better to assume that the clause would stand if challenged, UNLESS you have legal advice to the contrary.

Frankly, saying "In Uni I learned that some contracts are illegal, so don't take it for granted," is a poor reason. Presume contracts are legal and enforceable, and don't sign then unless you intend to be bound by their clauses. If you need to challenge them, then seek our a lawyer.

I'm afraid you'll have to do better than that - can you quote the section that you believe makes it unlawful to assign rights to your work to your employer?

Because that's what we're talking about, and it's covered very clearly in the copyright act, and it proves the opposite of what you seem to be claiming.

Specifically :

"(4) A consent may be given by an employee for the benefit of his or her employer in relation to all or any acts or omissions (whether occurring before or after the consent is given) and in relation to all works made or to be made by the employee in the course of his or her employment."

To repeat - you're wrong in fact, and in law. And reading comprehension.

Well it seems that as often is expected, people do include a load of things which are unenforceable by law in contracts, EULAs and similar. For instance saying they own everything you do inside and outside of work is a ludicrous statement. I'm sure they would love to own your life and everything you think, do and create, but legally it's totally unenforceable. I'm not a lawyer obviously but some statements are just credulous such as the 'we own everything' one.

In regards to whether or not it's a hobby or generating revenue, I cannot imagine a company having legal control over your outside-of-work-activities. First of all in respects to how they would even know about them, but secondly, you cannot choose careers that share no common grounds with your hobbies, your partner's hobbies or your friends hobbies. So trying to prevent engaging in those hobbies due to a perceived conflict of interests, or competitive conflict, seems unsustainable.

Of course those are just my thoughts, the best advice in this thread is to seek out professional information from a laywer or server, but of course that's something for my friend to do as opposed to me. I was just curious as to what the general belief is - and there seems not to be one. ;)

Thanks for the comments though.

"We own everything" might be hard to enforce. "We own the stuff you do that relates to our business, ie games, and that's what we're paying for" is in fact the standard work-for-hire style contract. It's specifically called out in the copyright act for that reason.

You keep coming back to "I don't think this is fair" as if it has some kind of legal weight. "I cannot imagine a company having legal control over your outside-of-work-activities" - it doesn't really matter, there's years of contract law to suggest that's the case.

If you've come away from this with the thought that there's no consensus then you're making the mistake of trusting people who are totally uninformed (like yourself) making statements about what they "think things should be like," rather than the way they actually are in law. Even ten seconds research would show this.

Did they give a reason why the company don't want him to work on his indie projects?

Risk of being unproductive at work due to tiredness from working all the time?
Conflict of interest?
IP ownership issues?
It was OK before but now we've realized you make money from it please stop doing it because we are jealous!

Also did this come down from the top of the company or just some manager?

I don't think I worked at a single Aussie games company where a good portion of people didn't work on hobby projects in their own time. I think the employers need to understand that employees are going to become creatively frustrated at times and that working on hobby projects is a way for the employee to further develop their skills in the industry. A lot of employers actively encourage employees to do this because they know how important it is and sometimes allow the employee to work on something of their own during company time at specified hours (although the IP ownership of that work is another issue in itself) at least it gives an opportunity for the employee to experiment and try things out freely rather than under the strings of their task master!

actually it's a great reason, in uni I've learned that some contract are illegal regardless of their wordings, which (by your own admittance is true) makes some contracts illegal regardless of their wording. It's actually not that hard to understand.

Go see a lawyer, knowing that some contracts are illegal means you can look out for things which are suspicious and seek help. It's not better to assume anything, it's better to ask and assume things can change; hell, why would I negotiate my contracts at all if I just "assumed" that it's all solid as a brick?

The OP's situation sounds suspicious, my suggestion is go see a lawyer and also quit, I wouldn't want to work for a company which means to steal my ideas. This isn't 1940, employees have rights and employers should understand that treating the staff well will yield a much stronger product than abusing them. Game development isn't the high and mighty occupation it used to be (and even then it wasn't really), the entry price into game development is fairly cheap.

I think you are getting a little excited about what was just a general enquiry.

In regards to doing some research, for my own benefit since I am in a similar, though much nicer situation, call around. I called some free legal advice services and they had the following to say. It 'depends'. If there is an established overlap or conflict of interests, then there are legal grounds to ensure that the company and the individual is protected. If there is not an established overlap, then the best bet would be to open a discussion with the company themselves to see their concerns. There is no one-size fits all solution, or black and white answer like you seem to think and assert there is.

Which is exactly what I said my thoughts were, as a blanket "You can't do that." there is no legal grounds for this, unless there are some precidents established - such as an overlap in interests. 'Working on game development' isn't a credible overlap or conflict. The reason I mentioned that it feels a bit weird, is because the very nature of the law is to protect and restore, not to violate and destroy. It's based on our moral intuitions and enforced in an objective as possible manner. You seem to want to make it a very black and white issue, and so far the advice given to me by legal professionals doesn't support that view.

Also if you read my previous reply, I specifically said I never ventured forth my feelings on this as a legal argument, they are merely my feelings on this. Simply saying that this doesn't feel right, I may look into this more, which is a perfectly rational and reasonble thing to do.

Going to put my opinion in here. But is completely that. An opinion and nothing more.

Most companies and studios have a few paragraphs in their contract that states that you cannot produce related-industry work in your spare time. The reasons I speculate and have herd from others before are:

- They don't want a employee who's only half invested into their studio. If you're working on indie stuff or other related-industry projects then that puts into question your commitment to that studio. Are you simply using them to earn a pay and then put your real creative input into your own stuff? Are you invested into their company? Do you want to add value to it and go up the ladder?

- If your indie project grows huge? What if you leave unexpectedly because of it? Or you start to poach people from the studio to your indie project? Your indie project may very well undermine the studio you work for in some capacity either large or small

- What if your using their resources to make the game? This could be as simple as peoples time or as bad as using their software and hardware after hours.

Companies don't disallow people making their own projects because they're assholes. They do it because the idea of an employee dedicating their time and attention creatively outside work hours is an unknown variable they can't control. It may well be the case that more often then not it's completely harmless and nothing bad will come of it. But in an industry like ours it's a risk businesses don't want to take.

Many companies counteract this issue by having periods of rapid prototyping or dedicating one day a week for employees to work on their own projects that could turn into company projects.

I understand that some developers working in studios creating game they may not be invested in might dedicate time to something out of hours. But consideration needs to be made from the employer side as much as the employee.

No that I know of anyhow. My friend is offline currently, so I will ping him later for some updates. It's interesting how different companies perceive this sort of thing. Some are so paranoid, and some are pretty ok, with an understanding that your work has no significant overlap. Like, if I was working for a place making steampunk FPS games, and that just so happened to be my personal project, then sure even I can see a conflict there. But if I make IOS TBS games, and they make desktop FPS games, then I'm not sure I can see an issue. In respects to being tired, I mean anything and everything can cause that, staying up late reading Wheel of Time, can/has made me tired. ;) It just feels a bit too knee-jerk-reaction'y to me I suppose.

Anyway as I replied to the ever-so-exciteable poster above you, I did actually all around as it seemed like something I should know about since I'm in the same situation, although my employer is pretty cool in that regard. The general advice, (other than speak to a lawyer) was that it really depends on the situation, when all is said and done, and you remove any concern about job loss or what have you - ie speaking from a purely legal standpoint of what is what, and what can happen, it entirely depends on the specifics. In this case I think my buddy should be fine, as his work has zero overlap with his indie stuff, other than being about games on a high level. But of course he will need to sort that our his side.

But for anyone else reading, the bottom line is, "It depends". It's ultimately about the overlap of interests, and if your employer is reasonable and will talk to you about it, you can likely discuss it and reach a conclusion with them. It's not suggested to nod and smile and sign their contract, and then just go ahead and violate it by doing your own thing out of hours, as even though they may not find out about it, if it does become and issue, you have essentially no legal ground to stand on whatsoever. So don't do that, make sure the law and facts are on your side. :) Cheers!

A couple of studios I worked at had clauses relating to IP ownership but they never had anything in them that said the employee was not allowed to work on their own stuff.

Where next? employees must not have any hobbies at all?

Yeah your reasons are good and valid, and I agree completely.

Since I can't talk about my friend, I can use my case where I work for a company (been there 7 months) who has given me a green flag to carry own with my own work, which does generate a revenue. To address the points you raise in that context, whilst the game I work on isn't what I would call 'my sort of game' it is fun, I do like it and I am interested in it and making it great. In respects to my own company taking off, would I leave - yes sure I would, and they know this. However I've committed, as have they, to at least another 12 months which will see the end of this current project for them, and then we will review things then, and that's good from both sides I think as it ensures someone integral to their project won't just leg it, and it also I think acknowledges the employees own need to pursue their goals outside of work. In regards to using their resources and tools, that's just an outright no. I have my own tools (as I work from home) and they send me any specifics which I don't have already for my own use, and I use them only for what they are intended.

I guess I think my waryness in laying down a black/white statement on this (taking into account the advice I've been given and from thinking through it all more) is that there seems to be distinctions which should be made, and it seems like they are not often made. But good points in your post. :)

What was asked is :

Is this contract illegal, regardless of its wording?

Your answer ("Some contracts are illegal, regardless of their wording!") is of no value to anyone. It doesn't tell us anything about this specific issue.

My response is

1) That's a very common clause to find in employment contracts for IP development related jobs.
2) I've never encountered a piece of case law in Australia challenging it.

Which means that in order to actually challenge it, you're going to need to set a precedent proving that it is unenforceable. Without any existing case law to draw upon, that will be expensive.

See how your answer doesn't add anything to the understanding of this specific case, but mine does (ie, I know of no existing case law, without existing case law challenging would be very difficult).

"'Working on game development' isn't a credible overlap or conflict."

If any of your legal advice has told you this, they are incorrectly informed. If it's just another thing you've made up because you "feel that should be the fair way, so that's probably the law" then fair enough. You're wrong.

Yeah, that's the general situation - you can work on whatever you like, but it's owned by the studio you work for. Obviously they can't tell you what to work on in your spare time, but that can take ownership of it if that was in the contract.

Ok there seems to be some mis information floating around here. I will give some general advice but you should check with your lawyer about your own circumstances before you act.

Firstly, a distinction needs to be made between those of you who are employees, and those of you who are independent contractors. As an independent contractor the provisions of the Copyright Act apply differently to how they apply to employees . You are likely to be an independant contractor if you are hired to do a certain job (provide music for a game for eg) and there is a definite finish line to what you have been hired to do.

If you are employed (you have signed an employment contract, your boss takes out your tax from your pay and you have to be at a certain place at a certain time etc etc) the basic rule of thumb is that your employer cannot claim that work you do in your spare time belongs to the employer. The employer can (and will) claim that the work you do while at work does belong to the employer.

The difficulty is when what you are doing in your spare time comes precariously close to the work you are doing for your employer.

To illustrate, if you are employed to come up with ideas for games, it is going to be difficult to prove that the game you just thought of after hours was not done in the course of your employment. However if you are employed to write code, and in your spare time you come up with a game idea, it will be easier to prove. This is why when you are starting a new job you need to be as clear as possible on what it is that you are being paid to do. Make sure this is clear in the contract.

As an answer to Digitalos's question, an employer cannot on the face of it prevent you from producing content for your indie projects in your spare time. However, the devil is in the detail because it really depends on what it is you are hired to do. Think about what you are employed to do, and what it is that you plan to be developing in your spare time. In Digitalos' example it sounds like what has occurred is that the employee has started off doing one job and has drifted into doing another one. If it is a real problem I suggest he/she seeks some advice.

As a side note, it is important to remember that work you have done for your employer will normally be owned by it. This means that the code you just came up with at your office does not belong to you. You cant take it home and plonk it neatly into your own work and carry on as this would be an infringement of your employer's copyright

"in the course of his or her employment."

That's what they have hired an employee to do and given them instruction to do in return for renumeration. What the employee does outside of work is not in the course of their employment.

If your saying otherwise then in theory the company owns everything they create which would extend to photos they take, blog posts they write, facebook posts they make. etc.. A company cannot attempt to "own" someone like this because that is illegal.

I can't offer any specific advice on this course, but considering it seems no-one can, I'll offer you my assessment of QUT generally.

Their Creative Industries courses have some good qualities, but they have very little regard for their students. As with most institutions, their bottom-line is their top priority, and they have no interest in bettering student outcomes, updating courses or any of the "real world" content and outcomes they enjoy promoting. If you can find someone doing the course who says it's on-the-ball, then it will probably work out well. If it was out of date last year, it'll still be so this year, however.

I'm currently studying this course, and I've found it to be great. It's compulsary to study units called 'Drawing for Design' and 'Drawing for Animation', both of these teach fundamental skills like the ones you've mentioned. Life drawing is also in Drawing for Design.
I've found the tutors to be very helpful, willing to go out of their way to offer assistance. I've found the facilities at QUT Kelvin Grove, where you'd be studying this course, to be well equipped with the programs/hardware you'll need to undertake the course.

:) That's my 2 cents, in any case.

To my knowledge becoming a conceptual artist required extremely strong artistic knowledge, and very little technical, so I'd suggest taking up the Fine Arts degree in RMIT. Their program structure seems to be great for traditional artists whilst giving the students a few options to take up subjects in video, animation, sound and more for some electives.

Link to the degree: http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse;ID=BP201
Link to the degree's structure: http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse/;CURPOS=1?programCode=%3F&STYPE=ENTIRE&QR…)

I was just last night running some predictions on the current unemployment rate in the industry based off rates of job loss and new entrants into the industry from game-specific courses, not including animation, business, software engineering, etc. Even assuming 100% employment at the peak and no dedicated entrants from non-game-specific courses... the numbers are staggering. The only boon being I couldn't account for those that have abandoned the industry. On top of that, concept art positions are rare and highly sought-after.

That said, the goal is not impossible. You see the position advertised locally here on tsumea occasionally. I think Tipatlong has offered some good advice on what is worth studying. Learning traditional art skills will be your best choice, while practicing your speed-painting and specific things such as turn-arounds in your spare time. Most game-specific courses are rather poor, so I'd stay away from them generally.

Why don't you send an email to people who are already successful concept artists and ask them for advice. Here I will help you chase some names - Luke Kopycinski, Min Yum, Andrew Lay.

I'm sure if you are really nice and contact them for advice they might help you out.

Unless you have prior experience in a games company, your CV isn't going to be particularly relevant, it's all about your skills. TBH, having a relevant degree is NOT going to put you ahead, unless you are not very motivated personally to put together an amazing portfolio.

Art directors will be focusing on your 'folio.

Clearly, having strong drawing skills is non-negotiable, but you also need to demonstrate understanding of:

- Composition
- Creativity
- Story telling (having good story boards is a huge plus)
- Game Camera
- Lighting
- Mood etc

Being able to show a range is really important too, not just having a bunch of variations on the same theme (i.e. pretty Manga girls you like to draw). To help yourself stand out from the crowd, DO NOT include the following in your book :

Girls With Big Tits; Barbarians Wielding Axes, Covered in Blood; Aliens; Space Ships; Gangsters Getting Shot in the Face; Orcs; Giant Robots; and, of course, Postapocalyptic Wastelands.

All these things are kind of yawn inducing, so come up with something really fresh and people will take notice.

Judging courses by employment stats may not be realistic in the current environment.
There are incredibly few graduate opportunities, (unless they start their own companies, which is cool) and these will go to exceptional students who would probably have excelled regardless of the course which they attended.

To put it another way: I doubt that there have be more than a handful of grads, country wide, who have found employment with studios in the past year. This tends to make a statistical sample unreliable.

Check out the skills you need to learn, and whether the courses you are assessing have people with professional experience in these.

Is there really nobody in this forum that has come from RMIT? I can't find much feedback from their "animation & interactive media" course or their "games graphic design" course :| Do you guys know another australian entertainment forum I can ask this question to at least?

Hey Tipatlong,

I did the RMIT course - Bachelor of Arts (Games Graphics Design). I graduated at the end of 2007; the first round of students to complete that course. I got a job at Infinite Interactive after about 6 months of looking for work, and also did some work for a small indie developer before that. When I arrived at Infinite there were another 4 of my former classmates working there, which was pretty good given that there were only 35 or so people working there at the time.

I also heard of a few other people getting picked up at a few other places like Tantalus and Torus. Having said all that, I know of plenty of people that never got a job that came from the course. For the most part though, the people that were really dedicated, and the ones that really impressed when they presented their work were the ones that got jobs.

To answer your specific questions:

What were the teachers like?
For the most part good. They all really cared and some had quite impressive credentials as digital artists, although none at the time I studied there had any video game industry experience, which was a touch concerning.

Did they seem to care about your education?
Yes.

Did they try and keep pushing you to become better?
Yes and no. They encouraged people to get better, but I think a lot of students realised that getting a pass mark in most of the subjects was far too easy, and just slacked off. At the end of the day, it is up to the student to keep motivated. The teachers will certainly support you if you are enthusiastic yourself.

Did they seem like they knew what they were talking about?
Yes, however in regards specifically to video games some had no clue; some did.

Were you happy with your course at the end?
Yes, I enjoyed the course and picked up a job. There were some problems with how it was run, although I would point out that a lot of changes were made (I hear for the better) after my class graduated.

Did they have the proper equipment to fit your needs?
Yes, 2 dedicated games studios reserved for the video game courses. This meant there was always a machine available for you to use, even if a class was running within the studio. They have both PC and Macs; PCs were used for game dev specific software (eg: Unreal Ed) whilst Macs were used for graphic design (Adobe suite, Maya). I think there may also be a 3rd studio now.

Judging from the courses you are looking into, it sounds like you are more interested in Animation? If that is the case I'd consider looking at the Animation and Interactive Media course. The Games Graphics Design course is really tailored more towards design and teaching you a really broad skillset as a base. We had a really good Animation teacher named Christian, but I only remember having him for 1 class of Maya. There was also another guy, Darren I think, who tought Flash and he was quite good.

-Tim

Thanks a lot of writing that Tim! It helps a lot.
I actually want to become a 3D artist since I like sculpting with Zbrush quite a bit.
It seems that the teachers would be good there and the facilities would be even better now.
I'm leaning more towards taking the Bachelor of Arts (Digital Arts) which is also a games sector thing I heard, and from the course structure, there are some subjects that are also found in the games graphics design course (so knowing what some of the teachers are like really helps). Thanks again :)

I'm currently studying the Bachelor of Interactive Entertainment (Animation) course and I'm really enjoying it so far. The lecturers all seem very knowledgeable and really take the time to help you out if you need it.

It seems the college has plenty of equipment and the library has some awesome resources. The biggest problem I've had so far is that there seems to be a lot of students who are here who just like to waste time and interrupt the class. I wish that the lecturers would stamp out this behaviour a bit more effectively.

If you're up for the challenge and work hard then its totally worth it.

-Laura

I recently graduated from Qantm, Melbourne and can briefly share my experience doing the BA. programming stream side of things...

What were the teachers like?
Excellent. They are very experienced and many have been in the industry for some time. They also were very approachable, flexible and really encouraged you to excel.

Did they seem to care about your education?
Very much so. They really do want to see all students do well. Of course, many students were just there to waste time, but if you were very keen to get into the industry, you will do fine.

Did they try and keep pushing you to become better?
Yep. Again, you need to learn to push yourself in the end. Once out in the industry, you are going to have to drive yourself along to be the best at what you do.

Did they seem like they knew what they were talking about?
Again, yes. Some of their experience outside UNI life also crossed over and helped ' tailor ' some course material and fuel students to think about other real world aspects. It is amazing how true some of their ' in the real world... ' predictions have become ... :P

Were you happy with your course at the end?
Yep very happy. I found it was perfect place to get my grounding. Note that once you leave, you still need to work at it. It is the games industry after all, and cutting edge. But the skills and base that I gained helps me do the further work needed.

Did they have the proper equipment to fit your needs?
Initially, it was a little sparse on the equipment side (as I started when Qantm, Melbourne was newly formed), but I recently have been there and the machines and labs are awesome. Heaps of machines, free labs, both new macs, pcs etc.

Add in any additional information you want, the more the better.
Note that I did the Programming stream, but the above questions you asked relates to both.
I think that, for me at least, I really got a lot out of Qantm, Melbourne and the teachers were extremely supportive. Their industry contacts also helped, as I got my internship, and after leaving, have been getting work ever since. As well, as starting our own small games company ;)

Also do you think employers will take the qualifications from one place more seriously over the other?
Hard to say. Qantm is a dedicated games / multimedia name so perhaps that may help...

Good luck! All I can suggest is... if you want it badly enough - just do it. I would work on your stuff NOW before even getting to a UNI. With soooo many tutorials and resources at your fingertips on the Internet, you can get a head start and really be ahead of the pack when you land at the UNI of your choice.
All the best mate!! :)

Not a problem. Doing the Digital Arts stream makes more sense then, and you're right; it is part of the Games group of courses, so you'll share quite a lot of classes with the Design students in particular, and also the Programmers from time-to-time. When I did the Design course there didn't seem to be much difference between the Design and Digital Arts streams, however I'd assume that has changed a bit over the last 4 years.

Just to make sure, this is melbourne yeah?
Sounds good, well except for that student problem, don't really understand why you'd pay so much money for a course you'd just waste time in :\ I know this is a random question, but are there much women in the school?

Hey thanks so much for that detailed reply! It helps tremendously.
And yeah, I'm working on my skills now and been doing so for a couple of years (whilst I was in high school, just graduated) ;) Working on my sculpting skills in Zbrush now :)

I'd still like to hear more from other people if possible!

Hey Tipatlong, i'd be glad to help.

My name is Joe, im currently studying my second year of Bachelor of interactive entertainment, Animation at Qantm Melbourne....
And YES - there has been A LOT of poor reviews on this site from the past few weeks, with regard to the teachers, facilities and overall service provided. However, this has not been my experience of the uni thus far. The facilities are very good, and constantly getting better. ALSO i think things (over the next few years) will change a fair bit for the better... You see Navitas (Navitas is an Australian diversified global education provider offering pre-university and university programs for students with operations in Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, Asia and Africa) just bought Qantm and SAE.

As for your questions:
What were the teachers like?
For the most part, the lecturers are great. If you ask for help, you'll get it. They're all industry experienced.
Did they seem to care about your education?
Again, for the most part they do.
Did they try and keep pushing you to become better?
This one is a little strange... I dont think they do. If you're an artist i feel as though you push yourself everyday to become better. And i think its more the other students around you, and the vibe that motivates you do push... not so much the teachers. That's perhaps the best thing about the uni, the fact that you're not sitting at home all day, read books or watching dvds on your own... you're actually in there, working in a group, learning from your mates and getting directed by your teachers.
Did they seem like they knew what they were talking about?
Yep :)
Were you happy with your course at the end?
I'm not done yet, i'm half way through my first trimester of the second year. But im happy with where im heading.
Did they have the proper equipment to fit your needs?
Yes they do. And you can survive on their equipment... but i do recommend having ur own pc, tablet, materials etc :)

Oh and as for working on your sculpting skills in zbrush, we dont actually use zbrush at Qantm, we use Mudbox... HOWEVER, i use zbrush all the time with my work, and its not an issue. But if you're looking for zbrush specific training, Qantm isnt the place.
I'd love to see your sculpts some time, do you have a website or DA?

It is a fast course, and you'll find yourself doing much of the (hard) work outside of uni hours at home or on campus. Like some one said in another thread, you get out what you put in... and if you sit around saying Qantm isnt a uni, or the facilities are crap, or there's no chance of getting a job after.. then there's no point in even going to uni.

I hope this was helpful.

Extremely helpful Joe! I found out the courses in rmit doesn't have any midyear intakes so I'll try to get in Qantm for midyear (I think it starts september) and if I like it I'll stay, if I don't I'll try to transfer :)

How hard is it exactly? I'm curious as to whether it's possible I do a business degree in vic uni at the same time (but part time to ease the load). The business degree I want from vic uni is the Bachelor of Business (Management / Marketing). Is it possible or would it just be too difficult?

So do they allow you to use Zbrush for your assignments if you have Zbrush at home?

As for my work, I'll post some of it up in a couple of weeks since I need to get my portfolio done, but it'll probably be in the GameArtisans forum, maybe polycount and maybe DA. If you have an account in any of those or an email I could let you know when I start posting my work up if you want :)

I was wondering whether anybody knew the names of the people who teach in Qantm melbourne's bachelor of interactive entertainment (with a major in animation) or if they know the link which shows me who the teachers are. Same for RMIT's Bachelor of Arts (animation and interactive media) course (I've decided that if I were to go to RMIT I'd prefer to do the animation course after looking through the course structures). Would be much appreciated :)

Hey Tipatlong,
I study with Joe at the Melbourne campus, and i must say, there is absolutely no way (and i hope i speak for all students) that you would be able to manage doing Qantm, as well as another degree on the side.
If you really want to excel, then you want to treat this degree as a full time job. I'm doing the Programming stream, so i cannot really comment on those aspects. But what i can say is that this degree is pretty hard, you really need to focus on your work. Now im not saying that you will be tied to your table 24/7, sure you can go out and have fun and still have your social life. But for the mots part of 2 years you will really need to settle down and treat this seriously. Far too many people drop out early, and even later on, because they lose focus and drop the ball.

hey thanks. Yeah I decided to do the 2 year degree in qantm and then take a masters in marketing/management afterwards (also 2 years). I'm glad to hear that it's hard though. Makes it feel worth trying for more, knowing that you just can't slack off and all.

http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse/;ID=EPSBP203P6AUSCY;STATUS=A#related gives you the three year level coordinators details. The BAAIM program is one of the best animation programs in Melbourne and it's very competitive to get a place. Helen Dickson is a graphic designer, Dan Torre is an animator (worked a lot in America, used to work on South Park) who also works a lot with compositing. and Mark Lycette is a designer/interactive/animator who is one half of Lycette Bros. http://lycettebros.com/

Your best bet of getting a reply from someone is to email baaim@rmit.edu.au

There are a number of other staff on board - film/video experts, script writing, even life drawing (which should be compulsory in any animation course). Be aware it is an animation program, not a games program, although you would have the opportunity to develop interactives in 2nd and 3rd year.

They also have an end of year screening at ACMI each year if you wanted to check out graduate work before you applied.

hi i am also a second year student at Qantm for the most part its OK but one thing I've discovered talking to a bunch of people myself is that no one is ever truly satisfied with the education they've received. It could have always been better and the teachers could have always done more to help you. Bottom line your an adult now and if you want to learn something your going to have to spend most of your time outside of uni researching topics your interested yourself regardless of which educational institution you choose. Personally i cant wait to get into the industry where the real learning begins.
Good luck

P.S. Take the advice given to you by Second Year (posted 22/32011)

nice 1 nina

Hey everyone, im an aspiring video game designer, currently in Year 9 in melbourne.
Im wondering what you guys did in terms of Year 10 work experience ( i know it's not a big deal in terms of future career, but i would like to know what's available in it that relates to the industry). I know that most game devs in melbourne dont take work experience, and ive heard that QANTM does, any help on the matter would be appreciated.

Also, ive seen a lot of info on this thread about the animation-related courses, and a bit about the programming, but im wondering if anyone has majored in games design at QANTM (or done any other similar courses).
Im not sure which path to follow (animation, programming, general game design, etc)
Ive tryed basically all of them, experimenting with a range of programs such as SmallBasic, Python, SketchUp and GameMaker, and I'm also going to try out Java (specifically minecraft modding) and Unity.

If anyone could give me some info on the different pathways available to people looking to start a career in the industry, and what each would entail, it would be much appreciated.
Also any advice or tips would be great too.
Thanks

hey mate, as a current aussie designer the main thing these days is being bale to show you ideas as a playable demo or at the very least a well cut video.

Any programming/scripting ability will go a long way, you should probably concentrate on that over any artistic stuff if you want work as a designer.

I've forwarded your enquiry to EA. Hopefully I'll get a response for you soon.

I've sent you their contact details for further discussion. Log in and click messages in the top bar there.

Thank you Souri, EA should expect to hear from me monday afternoon - tuesday morning since its now the weekend and i will be emailing them under my lecturers supervision

Thanks again

hi,
could you please forward EA Melbournes contact details to me. I'm looking for work experience in game design and maybe they might have something to offer. I would greatly appreciate it.
my email is yianni152014@gmail.com

Hi Souri,
would you be able to send me EA melbourne's details? I'm just trying to send out job applications for a Quality Assurance Games Tester position to start with so I can get my foot in the door, my email address is hanzyl@hotmail.com

Your best bet is to contact Firemint and IronMonkey Studios to enquire about that position. I have had exceptional correspondences with HR personnel at EA Melbourne for years, but my contact has since moved on unfortunately.

Hi Souri,
Do you have any info about Visceral Studios in Melbourne, like the address and HR contact Details? If you do, can you please forward them to my email: danny.duy.vo@gmail.com

Thanks a lots

>/dev/null

I wish everyone all the best. :(

Hi all,

I have recently applied for a position with Firemint and i would like to speak with them to find out if they did infact receive my application. Any help with how to get in contact with them would be great! The phone number of theirs that i have is not in use currently.

Thanks again.

Hi All

I have applied for a position with EA games in the Melbourne office. This was in January and I have not heard anything, not even sure if they have received my application. Has anyone else had a similar experience? Does anyone know of any contact details (email, ph no) so I could follow up?

Much appreciated